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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #11  
Old 17-04-2012, 01:12 PM
Mind's Eye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
Surely, you are too kind Mind's Eye. I thank and agree with you, and as soon as I can post actual links, will put some up myself. I have read much of Paul Davies, and he agrees with what we have proposed, as do many well-respected scientists. Even Einstein believed in some form of higher power or spirit :

"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble." - A.E.


Many Blessings : )

QuanKev


That's why I say that "honest scientists" will present the facts as they find them, even if it goes against the grain of what they formerly believed. But strangely, there are a number of men and women in the scientific field that make it their life work to debunk anything that points to Spirit and Intelligence.. I'm not sure why anyone would be so dead set against a higher power and a spiritual reality, but some are. And some of them are constantly stepping into the limelight with half truths and half researched information and hitting the public over the head with these spurious "evolutionary facts," when there is a plethora of actual data that proves their position to be unfounded. Yet many gobble down those unfounded facts and believe it to be the gospel truth.

It is an interesting mind that would rather believe it is a walking, evolutionary accident with no spiritual reality; rather than to believe it is more than flesh and blood and see the wonder in the universe around them. Why do you think some folks think in this way Kev?
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  #12  
Old 17-04-2012, 03:00 PM
QuantumKev QuantumKev is offline
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Kepler - thank you for the comments. And although - honestly - it can be a bit irritating to have to argue the "whys" of why I believe something to anyone, I think there is much merit in it, as it ensures that people like me who do have a scientific mind and some skepticism but also believe in a higher power don't go believing in anything that comes along because it sounds cool.

I find the fact that you are here though, in a spiritual forum, seemingly arguing against the idea of an intelligent designer somewhat intriguing. Are you here to simply try to debunk that belief? And if so, why would you want to contribute to a forum whose very name implies belief in something non-material? Or could it be that you are here because you are hoping that someone can convince you, with the backing of science, that there is such a power/force/spirit/god? Just curious : )


Many Blessings all,

QuanKev
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  #13  
Old 17-04-2012, 03:09 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
I have been fascinated by DNA ever since I first learned about it. From what I understand, there are 4 bases (or proteins), abbreviated as A, C, G and T. And though there are 4 different kinds, the pairing is limited such that A (adenine) bonds only to T (thymine), and C (cytosine) bonds only to G (guanine).

Now being a computer programmer as I am, it struck me that in essence, DNA is a binary language (please note that I am a programmer Jim, not a doctor! Lol) Hence, I could be wrong about this and oversimplifying far too much. Still, I don't think it is a far stretch to say that any programmer can look at the A-T C-G pairings and they way there are alllowed to combine, and see that there are striking similarities to many of the currently (or formerly used) programming languages.

So where am I going with all this... I guess where I am going is to say that as a programmer, as a spiritual person, as a skeptic and as a curious human being, it seems to me that there is just no way - NO way - the "language" of DNA, and all its complexities, could have arisen simply by 'chance', through the workings of evolution and chaos. In my mind, there had to be - just had to be - some sort of intelligence behind it.

To say there isn't is akin to saying that if no human being ever set out to write the code that created - well, say even this website for example - that it would have just "spontaneously arisen" after billions of years of chance happenings and mutations. And considering how inordinately more complex DNA is than even the most complex website or software, I guess I just don't see how anyone - especially those with a programming background like myself - can think that there isn't some form of intellingence behind that which we know as "life".

I am curious to hear what others think about all this. And as always, Many Blessings : )

QuanKev

In my expereince you will either spend your life making up what that something is that is behind all this or you will simply participate....
James
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  #14  
Old 17-04-2012, 03:25 PM
QuantumKev QuantumKev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind's Eye
It is an interesting mind that would rather believe it is a walking, evolutionary accident with no spiritual reality; rather than to believe it is more than flesh and blood and see the wonder in the universe around them. Why do you think some folks think in this way Kev?

I think they have the false belief that science and spirituality simply cannot coexist - that staunch belief in one precludes and real faith in the other. Of course most of the great scientists and physicists knew this wasn't true, as even Einstein (yes, another Einstein quote - he was cool! And kinda' smart) said :

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

My hope is that one day, this seeming false dichotomy will slip away for good so that we as a species can truly evolve into something more than we are. It is evident, to me at least, that a lack of belief in something more, something greater, will only lead us further down the path of self destruction. I would add that science without spirituality, and based on materialistic beliefs only, is a poison that disguises itself as "progress"....

Many Blessings All,

QuanKev
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  #15  
Old 17-04-2012, 03:42 PM
Kepler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
Kepler - thank you for the comments. And although - honestly - it can be a bit irritating to have to argue the "whys" of why I believe something to anyone, I think there is much merit in it, as it ensures that people like me who do have a scientific mind and some skepticism but also believe in a higher power don't go believing in anything that comes along because it sounds cool.
You're not obligated to defend "why" you believe anything. You're entitled to your own personal beliefs, of course. Keep in mind, though, that this is the "science" section of the forum. So, by posting here it kind of implies that you're willing to discuss the details of such things, especially if you use science to support your beliefs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
I find the fact that you are here though, in a spiritual forum, seemingly arguing against the idea of an intelligent designer somewhat intriguing.
Why do you think I'm arguing against the idea of an intelligent designer? I am criticizing your arguments in favor of an intelligent designer. These are different things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
Are you here to simply try to debunk that belief? And if so, why would you want to contribute to a forum whose very name implies belief in something non-material? Or could it be that you are here because you are hoping that someone can convince you, with the backing of science, that there is such a power/force/spirit/god? Just curious : )
I'm not trying to "debunk" anything. I'm just looking for a conversation. If someone says something silly, or something that I disagree with, it's worth discussing.

I'm on these forums because there is a great mix of different members with different views. This means the conversations always get interesting.
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  #16  
Old 17-04-2012, 05:41 PM
QuantumKev QuantumKev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kepler
Why do you think I'm arguing against the idea of an intelligent designer? I am criticizing your arguments in favor of an intelligent designer. These are different things.

So perhaps a good question is this : is there any argument for an intelligent designer that you see as valid? It seems to me that, since there is no way to definitively prove it one way or another, the true materialist will always be able to poke holes in the logic of anyone's assertion that there just might be one, right?

This is an ongoing argument between those of us who believe, and those who don't. And the fact is, there is no 'making' someone believe. If you choose not to believe, that's completely acceptable to me. But after 20+ years of "arguing" the case, I have grown tired, as it seems nothing less than the concrete manifestation of a higher 'being' standing in front of someone and literally creating something living out of thin air could make a believer out of someone who refuses to believe. And even then, I'm certain the diehard skeptic could find some scientific explanation for what just happened, reducing it all to trickery.

I like what Mind's Eye said, and I agree with it. I simply choose to believe that there is something more to life than we are currently capable of perceiving directly, something unprovable, and nothing anyone says can change my belief. Just as nothing anyone can say can make you change yours. But I will argue no more my friend. I enjoy the banter, but arguing points is so tiresome - life is too short. When someone can explain to me how 2 particles that are related through quantum entanglement can 'communicate' their state to each other in such a manner that it happens instantaneously over any distance, defying the "cosmic speed limit" of the speed of light using the current laws of physics - well, THEN I will be impressed! : )


Many Blessings All,

QuanKev
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  #17  
Old 17-04-2012, 06:17 PM
Kepler
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Thanks for the reply, QuantumKev.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
So perhaps a good question is this : is there any argument for an intelligent designer that you see as valid?
Not a scientific one, no. This does not mean that one doesn't exist or can't be created or discovered. This also does not mean that one can't hold a belief in a higher power. Belief is about different things for different people. Many people don't care what science or philosophy has to say about a higher power, they just believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
It seems to me that, since there is no way to definitively prove it one way or another, the true materialist will always be able to poke holes in the logic of anyone's assertion that there just might be one, right?
Yes, it seems that way. Again, this doesn't mean one can't meaningfully hold a belief in a higher power, and also doesn't mean that a convincing argument can't, in principle, be created or discovered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
This is an ongoing argument between those of us who believe, and those who don't. And the fact is, there is no 'making' someone believe. If you choose not to believe, that's completely acceptable to me. But after 20+ years of "arguing" the case, I have grown tired, as it seems nothing less than the concrete manifestation of a higher 'being' standing in front of someone and literally creating something living out of thin air could make a believer out of someone who refuses to believe. And even then, I'm certain the diehard skeptic could find some scientific explanation for what just happened, reducing it all to trickery.
Again, you're not obligated to argue anything here. You created this thread and asked what people thought of your ideas. I commented, and now we're here. I hope you didn't assume everyone would just uncritically accept what you were saying?


Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
I like what Mind's Eye said, and I agree with it. I simply choose to believe that there is something more to life than we are currently capable of perceiving directly, something unprovable, and nothing anyone says can change my belief.
That's fine. There's really nothing more I can say about this. Remember, I am not criticising your personal beliefs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
Just as nothing anyone can say can make you change yours.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about my personal spiritual beliefs, although I have presented no details about them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumKev
When someone can explain to me how 2 particles that are related through quantum entanglement can 'communicate' their state to each other in such a manner that it happens instantaneously over any distance, defying the "cosmic speed limit" of the speed of light using the current laws of physics - well, THEN I will be impressed! : )
There is good reason to think that quantum entanglement does not allow superluminal communication.

I've enjoyed the discussion thanks.
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  #18  
Old 20-04-2012, 12:57 AM
seekerscientist
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The tornado and the junk yard

A famous scientist said the following about reductionist chemical scenarios for the origins of life:

It's analogous to a tornado sweeping into a junk yard and creating a 747 aircraft by its passage.

See the chapter entitled "Primordial Soup" in my book "The First Principles: A Scientist's Guide to the Spiritual". See more information about it at: www.seekerscientist.com Read it free at: www.scribd.com
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  #19  
Old 20-04-2012, 01:12 AM
Kepler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerscientist
A famous scientist said the following about reductionist chemical scenarios for the origins of life:

It's analogous to a tornado sweeping into a junk yard and creating a 747 aircraft by its passage.
Yeah, a statement so silly that it's now known as Hoyle's Fallacy.
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  #20  
Old 20-04-2012, 02:18 AM
Sammy Sammy is offline
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I have been entertaining the comparison between human genetic evolution and how we progress through our individual lives.

Take this picture for example.



You can see the spiraling shape, with a straight line of smaller balls in the middle. I consider this will or "the God line", our hardest line of defense to crack and our last in that line.

To build this will "straight" the activity around it has to support its direction in comfort. The two sides being mind and body, promoting growth (evolution).

The reason the two would spiral around "will" is our natural cycles to fulfill our wills desires. The mind in thoughts, and the body in actions. We think and look at things to make us happy, this is the main focus during the event until satisfaction is met.

The body has needs as well though, and eventualy will need tending. The focus then shifts to the other but not forgeting the first (memory of the thoughts). Do this till the day you die and you got an average life, building from what it and others have left behind.
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