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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #31  
Old 27-02-2012, 01:41 PM
Shabby
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I heard of an experiment done by a scientist but when a science teacher tried to duplicate the experiment he had a different result. I can't find it on the internet...has anyone heard about it?
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  #32  
Old 27-02-2012, 04:11 PM
SerpentQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forests
Sorry but this is a typical new age flawed understanding of QM, however dont worry you are not alone here, and mainstream physicists have pointed out the problem with new age or spiritual interpretation of physics just search online for this. QM is not influenced by the mind. You appear to misunderstand the Uncertainty Principle or you are unaware that it doesn't refer to a conscious observer, that is a typical misunderstanding.

It doesn't sound like you understand quantum physics. That's okay, mainstream physicists cover the "Quantum Enigma" on day one of their classes and then are told to ignore it and focus instead on practical applications rather than the philosophical quandary that it presents.

Here's a good book, written by two physicists -- but for any lay reader's comprehension -- and extensively and exhaustively footnoted:

http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Enigma.../dp/0199753814

Quantum particles are absolutely influenced by the mind and the conscious observer. There is no misunderstanding here -- except perhaps that it's the "Observer Effect" rather than the "Uncertainty Principle." But that is a minor quibble.
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  #33  
Old 27-02-2012, 04:15 PM
SerpentQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xan
My thought about this is, even though it was initially an instrument that recorded the changed behavior of the particles and waves, a human observer observed that.


Xan

It's freakier than that. It is the question (or hypothesis) that was asked -- it needn't even be vocalized; it can be but a thought in the head. That is why it's not called the "instrument" effect.

That said, there is something going on between the conscious observer and that (the inanimate and what we think of as not conscious) which is being observed -- some sort of feedback loop. How else could it "read" our mind?
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  #34  
Old 27-02-2012, 04:17 PM
SerpentQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiralNature
Ironically I have a 2 hour lecture on QM at 2pm, its interesting but i tell you, the equations and derivations are the worst i've ever seen

I agree, its such a brilliant experiment! he's a genius for conceiving the idea.QM is some crazy stuff

The irony is that Schrodinger used that thought experiment because he wanted to show just how ludicrous QM is... in other words, he was a skeptic about it all.
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  #35  
Old 27-02-2012, 04:38 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Here's a nice overview from Discover mag on the quantum theory of reverse causality. Or, the future influencing the past.

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future

I'm not sure if anything quantum explains what Shabby experienced, but it's certainly a possibility...

Then again, if it was just a visual distortion...
-- it may have been a hallucination, yes...or
-- it may have been an isolated geological incident
but
if it wasn't a hallucination....and there were no geological happenings(norumblings of earthquake, no sinkhole)

...then let's not forget, there is a still whole collection of MIB related stories and the like. With various types of technology for concealment and so forth.

curiouser and curiouser is right.
;)

Peace & blessings,
7L

Sorry I neglected to point out that the above link also has quite a nice discussion of the observer effect in lay terms...

The physicist actually points out that quantum physics essentially mirrors this same observer effect which has also been noted in biology, and gives examples.

(...and of course the same thing has long been noted in anthropology... 'participant observer' is the term used there, and the observer effects are also well noted).

Cheers,
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #36  
Old 27-02-2012, 04:52 PM
SerpentQueen
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Then again, if it was just a visual distortion...
-- it may have been a hallucination, yes...or
-- it may have been an isolated geological incident
but
if it wasn't a hallucination....and there were no geological happenings(norumblings of earthquake, no sinkhole)

Define "hallucination"... LOL... all of this that we call "reality" may be a dream. "Reality" may blink into existence the moment we put our focus/perspective/observation on it. If Shabby expected to see cement, it created cement. This may have been a "glitch" in the matrix in which she caught the cement in the act of being manifested...

I love it when such glitches happen...

Another good read is --

http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secr.../dp/0307377334

We are constantly perceiving not in the present but in the past. Our brains perceive in the present, but then carefully edit everything and play it back to us. If we were really capable of living in the true here/now... who knows what we might observe. Maybe Shabby got just such a glimpse.

I related on SF a long while back about an experiment I tried -- I think it may have been based on something someone here suggested. I'm sorry I don't remember, otherwise I'd give proper attributes. The idea was to try and focus on things without giving them a label. So I was in the bathroom and I looked around and focused on not automatically labeling "bathtub" "sink" etc.. even the shampoo bottle, which was the toughest of all, since it had printed words on it... and there was this brief moment when everything got crazy -- like what people say it looks like when you are on DMT. I got vertigo from it. Then it went away...

So maybe Shabby experienced just such a moment?
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  #37  
Old 27-02-2012, 05:20 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
Define "hallucination"... LOL... all of this that we call "reality" may be a dream. "Reality" may blink into existence the moment we put our focus/perspective/observation on it. If Shabby expected to see cement, it created cement. This may have been a "glitch" in the matrix in which she caught the cement in the act of being manifested...

I love it when such glitches happen...

Another good read is --

http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secret-Lives-David-Eagleman/dp/0307377334

We are constantly perceiving not in the present but in the past. Our brains perceive in the present, but then carefully edit everything and play it back to us. If we were really capable of living in the true here/now... who knows what we might observe. Maybe Shabby got just such a glimpse.

I related on SF a long while back about an experiment I tried -- I think it may have been based on something someone here suggested. I'm sorry I don't remember, otherwise I'd give proper attributes. The idea was to try and focus on things without giving them a label. So I was in the bathroom and I looked around and focused on not automatically labeling "bathtub" "sink" etc.. even the shampoo bottle, which was the toughest of all, since it had printed words on it... and there was this brief moment when everything got crazy -- like what people say it looks like when you are on DMT. I got vertigo from it. Then it went away...

So maybe Shabby experienced just such a moment?

It is certainly possible...

I agree, there are numerous glitches in the matrix, and they can appear as disconnects across various aspects of our perception (sight, sound, time, etc).

peace & blessings,
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #38  
Old 27-02-2012, 06:16 PM
Shabby
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentQueen
Define "hallucination"... LOL... all of this that we call "reality" may be a dream. "Reality" may blink into existence the moment we put our focus/perspective/observation on it. If Shabby expected to see cement, it created cement. This may have been a "glitch" in the matrix in which she caught the cement in the act of being manifested...

I love it when such glitches happen...

Another good read is --

http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secr.../dp/0307377334

We are constantly perceiving not in the present but in the past. Our brains perceive in the present, but then carefully edit everything and play it back to us. If we were really capable of living in the true here/now... who knows what we might observe. Maybe Shabby got just such a glimpse.

I related on SF a long while back about an experiment I tried -- I think it may have been based on something someone here suggested. I'm sorry I don't remember, otherwise I'd give proper attributes. The idea was to try and focus on things without giving them a label. So I was in the bathroom and I looked around and focused on not automatically labeling "bathtub" "sink" etc.. even the shampoo bottle, which was the toughest of all, since it had printed words on it... and there was this brief moment when everything got crazy -- like what people say it looks like when you are on DMT. I got vertigo from it. Then it went away...

So maybe Shabby experienced just such a moment?

You are so right Serpent Queen and thank you for your posts which I enjoy reading not just because they make me appear less crazy LOL

I know that hallucination is a possibility, but another possibility is as valid as we have no proof for such things.
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  #39  
Old 27-02-2012, 06:24 PM
Shabby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forests
SerpentQueen all people do on forums is say to one another "you do not understand quantum physics". Firstly we need to establish who we are talking to here, from what I have seen there is only two physicists on this forum and that does not include you, the majority of folk on this forum are not scientists or even studying natural sciences.

As soon as a scientist turns to metaphysics or spiritual he is no longer a scientist, he is then a philosopher this is what happens with a great deal of books on QM becuase there is alot of interpretation involved, even mainstream scientists have dabbled in some of this,werner heisenberg wrote a book before his death etc . The book you pasted in was not written by a crank, it was written by decent scientist but his book is philosophy its not science, I am not ignorant here I know of that book I was going to buy it a few years ago with the "holographic universe", but notice on amazon how it is related to the god theory and a tonne of other far out spiritual books, its not a science book and shouldnt be read as one. The book has not sold outside of new age circles and has recieved poor reviewes by fellow physicists.

The new age/spiritual folk had no science to back any of their metaphysics but since the 1970s after the realease of tao of the physics, spiritual folk have gone mad with quantum physics thinking it proves their far out claims. The truth is it doesnt. QM is just the study of subatomic particles and has showed some very interesting things about the nature of matter, none of which debunk material science or support metaphysics.

New ages get the observer effect totally wrong, and secondly they completey fail to understand the double slit experiment - that is all their evidence consists of, they have nothing else. You may see the word "entanglement" being dropped now by a few aswell.

The only way to learn about QM is to speak and ask questions to well qualified professors in this area. I recently sent alot of questions to a professor and he admitted to me the spiritual interpretation of QM is deeply flawed, it has no basis in reality. QM fits in with physicalism @ (material science), it has not reavealed anything to do with spirituality, metaphysics or consciousness shaping reality.



a major misunderstanding by wishful spiritual seekers, some of which has already been explained on this thread, now before you say "thats just your opinion" actually type up some evidence of why you seem to think Quantum particles are influenced by the mind. Do you have any?

Again I hear you Forest, but I do not believe (without questioning) a Scientist or Doctor over my experience, simply on the fact that they have not experienced it yet themselves or that there is no scientific proof to back up what I experienced. Science does not have all the answers for everything and things are still being discovered today. You can accept that right?
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  #40  
Old 27-02-2012, 06:51 PM
SerpentQueen
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by forests
SerpentQueen all people do on forums is say to one another "you do not understand quantum physics". Firstly we need to establish who we are talking to here, from what I have seen there is only two physicists on this forum and that does not include you, the majority of folk on this forum are not scientists or even studying natural sciences.

I am married to a scientist (no, not a physicist). We hang out with scientists all the time, including several physicists. I have relatives who are physicists. What they say is that they are told to focus on the practical applications and ignore the philosophical questions that quantum physics raises -- but that does not mean that the philosophical questions aren't real and valid, and don't keep them up at night wondering.


Quote:
As soon as a scientist turns to metaphysics or spiritual he is no longer a scientist, he is then a philosopher this is what happens with a great deal of books on QM becuase there is alot of interpretation involved, even mainstream scientists have dabbled in some of this,werner heisenberg wrote a book before his death etc . The book you pasted in was not written by a crank, it was written by decent scientist but his book is philosophy its not science, I am not ignorant here I know of that book I was going to buy it a few years ago with the "holographic universe", but notice on amazon how it is related to the god theory and a tonne of other far out spiritual books, its not a science book and shouldnt be read as one. The book has not sold outside of new age circles and has recieved poor reviewes by fellow physicists.

Since you haven't read the book, only the reviews, I will take your opinion on it with a grain of salt.

Quote:
The new age/spiritual folk had no science to back any of their metaphysics but since the 1970s after the realease of tao of the physics, spiritual folk have gone mad with quantum physics thinking it proves their far out claims. The truth is it doesnt. QM is just the study of subatomic particles and has showed some very interesting things about the nature of matter, none of which debunk material science or support metaphysics.

New ages get the observer effect totally wrong, and secondly they completey fail to understand the double slit experiment - that is all their evidence consists of, they have nothing else. You may see the word "entanglement" being dropped now by a few aswell.

I don't disagree with this.... but it seems you've gone to the other extreme.


Quote:
The only way to learn about QM is to speak and ask questions to well qualified professors in this area. I recently sent alot of questions to a professor and he admitted to me the spiritual interpretation of QM is deeply flawed, it has no basis in reality. QM fits in with physicalism @ (material science), it has not reavealed anything to do with spirituality, metaphysics or consciousness shaping reality.

Try a different professor. And don't ask him to put it into writing, my goodness! Don't you understand how science and academia work? Take him out for a beer, then ask your "off-the-record" questions.


Quote:
a major misunderstanding by wishful spiritual seekers, some of which has already been explained on this thread, now before you say "thats just your opinion" actually type up some evidence of why you seem to think Quantum particles are influenced by the mind. Do you have any?

I do have evidence. I've run my own personal experiments, along with my husband's help. We've had some amazing results. I don't talk about it publicly, and you wouldn't believe us anyway.
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