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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 03-10-2016, 11:46 AM
Emmalevine Emmalevine is offline
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Reconciling non duality with retaining individuality in spirit

This is something that has always confused me. I know I'm trying to understand it logically which may be part of the problem but regardless of that I'm hoping someone with good spiritual awareness may be able to explain it.

If each of us are part of the Whole and we are essentially One then persumably after death we go back to that experience of Oneness. How then can we reconcile this with the belief that our loved ones and other spiritual beings retain their individuality? In fact how do we explain individuality at all since we didn't exist in the same form prior to carnation.

I feel really stupid writing this out as people on this forum appear to have such an advanced understanding of such matters, but hey ho I'm putting this out there because I really want to understand the bigger picture.
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  #2  
Old 03-10-2016, 08:39 PM
wolfgaze wolfgaze is offline
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Emma don't feel 'stupid', this is a valid & good question...
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  #3  
Old 04-10-2016, 04:28 PM
Emmalevine Emmalevine is offline
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze
Emma don't feel 'stupid', this is a valid & good question...

Thank you
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  #4  
Old 03-10-2016, 09:32 PM
TarunP TarunP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmalevine
If each of us are part of the Whole and we are essentially One then persumably after death we go back to that experience of Oneness. How then can we reconcile this with the belief that our loved ones and other spiritual beings retain their individuality? In fact how do we explain individuality at all since we didn't exist in the same form prior to carnation.

An uneducated guess is as follows -

We can go back to Oneness even now, while in the physical body. There should not be any doubt about it. There is oneness (non-duality) and the illusion (duality) of a separate individual is created by the Mind. An "individual" is only an experience, nothing more, and it happens in oneness. The oneness does not become two when perceiving the individual, it remains one. That perception of the individual happens in oneness.

We can have the same oneness experience without a body (try it while oob or Samadhi, if you can, you will find the very same awareness, the Self, behind all mental states). So assuming that there is some non-physical structure that remains after death, there can remain an illusion of separateness.

Death is also an experience, a change. Just like all other things, bodies come and go. The screen remains one and whole, the scene changes on it. The Self, the witness, simply witnesses this play. All experiences of oneness or of separateness occur in the Self.
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  #5  
Old 04-10-2016, 04:30 PM
Emmalevine Emmalevine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TarunP
An uneducated guess is as follows -

We can go back to Oneness even now, while in the physical body. There should not be any doubt about it. There is oneness (non-duality) and the illusion (duality) of a separate individual is created by the Mind. An "individual" is only an experience, nothing more, and it happens in oneness. The oneness does not become two when perceiving the individual, it remains one. That perception of the individual happens in oneness.

We can have the same oneness experience without a body (try it while oob or Samadhi, if you can, you will find the very same awareness, the Self, behind all mental states). So assuming that there is some non-physical structure that remains after death, there can remain an illusion of separateness.

Death is also an experience, a change. Just like all other things, bodies come and go. The screen remains one and whole, the scene changes on it. The Self, the witness, simply witnesses this play. All experiences of oneness or of separateness occur in the Self.

Okay so we can experience Oneness while in the physical world so that essentially doesn't change while in the spirit world because individuality remains just an experience...oneness experiencing itself as a person/spiritual being and with persumably different degrees of awareness of that awareness.

This makes sense I think. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
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  #6  
Old 26-01-2017, 01:51 PM
jimrich jimrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TarunP
An uneducated guess is as follows -

We can go back to Oneness even now, while in the physical body.
My late wife, who is now a body-less individual over in the Afterlife (which I cannot prove exists) and she comes to visit quite often. She and I are both appearances in and of the Absolute or Boundless Energy or whatever label fits the Infinite. It could be said that all there is, is Oneness so nothing ever leaves It or returns to It. That is an illusion also expressed by this Oneness in it's cosmic play as it appears to be me, my late wife and all the other "things" here.

Quote:
We can have the same oneness experience without a body (try it while oob or Samadhi, if you can, you will find the very same awareness, the Self, behind all mental states). So assuming that there is some non-physical structure that remains after death, there can remain an illusion of separateness.
For me, it is a fact that my late wife is still here/there as an apparent individual without a 'conventional' body/form [non-physical structure] and that she, just like me (a physical structure) is an illusory appearance in and of Oneness.
It's amazing how difficult it is to put these facts and concepts into words!
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:29 AM
DreamKey DreamKey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmalevine
This is something that has always confused me. I know I'm trying to understand it logically which may be part of the problem but regardless of that I'm hoping someone with good spiritual awareness may be able to explain it.

If each of us are part of the Whole and we are essentially One then persumably after death we go back to that experience of Oneness. How then can we reconcile this with the belief that our loved ones and other spiritual beings retain their individuality? In fact how do we explain individuality at all since we didn't exist in the same form prior to carnation.

I feel really stupid writing this out as people on this forum appear to have such an advanced understanding of such matters, but hey ho I'm putting this out there because I really want to understand the bigger picture.

You're cutting to the idea of a personal experience of oneness. This isn't actually the way it works. In the same way your dream character in your nightly dreams is not having oneness experiences of the person in bed dreaming the whole thing up, the human body doesn't have a oneness experience. The body appears to the same consciousness that permeates the creation appearing, and so it would point closer to say consciousness or oneness itself is in a simulation of separation.

As far as the beliefs of loved ones retaining their individuality, that retaining happens in the human experiential framework. The framework is composed of two ideas, time and space. 'You', as consciousness, are not in those ideas.
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Old 04-10-2016, 04:38 PM
Emmalevine Emmalevine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamKey
You're cutting to the idea of a personal experience of oneness. This isn't actually the way it works. In the same way your dream character in your nightly dreams is not having oneness experiences of the person in bed dreaming the whole thing up, the human body doesn't have a oneness experience. The body appears to the same consciousness that permeates the creation appearing, and so it would point closer to say consciousness or oneness itself is in a simulation of separation.

As far as the beliefs of loved ones retaining their individuality, that retaining happens in the human experiential framework. The framework is composed of two ideas, time and space. 'You', as consciousness, are not in those ideas.


Your first paragraph reminds me of a dream that Carl Jung once had; he dreamed he entered a church where he found a yogi meditating. As he walked closer, he realised with some discomfort that the yogi had his face and was in fact him and the self he knew about was being dreamed, not the other way around. Once the yogi awakened, he knew his personal experience of self would no longer be.

Not sure if this is relevant, but is it more or less what you are saying?

I can understand what you mean about time and space being in a human domain. However, I'm still struggling with your second paragraph. As time and space do not exist in a non human domain, what can we say about the spirit world (if there is one) and individuality? Do you mind elaborating a bit? Many thanks.
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  #9  
Old 04-10-2016, 06:39 PM
DreamKey DreamKey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmalevine
Your first paragraph reminds me of a dream that Carl Jung once had; he dreamed he entered a church where he found a yogi meditating. As he walked closer, he realised with some discomfort that the yogi had his face and was in fact him and the self he knew about was being dreamed, not the other way around. Once the yogi awakened, he knew his personal experience of self would no longer be.

Not sure if this is relevant, but is it more or less what you are saying?

I can understand what you mean about time and space being in a human domain. However, I'm still struggling with your second paragraph. As time and space do not exist in a non human domain, what can we say about the spirit world (if there is one) and individuality? Do you mind elaborating a bit? Many thanks.

Time is a linear framework we create mentally to provide context to change. This framework is an idea. You see evidence of time everywhere, but you never experience time directly.

Space is the framework that gives meaning to the appearance of objects. Things appear to be separated by this thing we call space but this thing we call space is not other than an idea. If there were no objects in space the idea of space would have no meaning whatsoever, because everything would be space or more pointedly nothingness.

Out of nothingness comes the world of appearance. Time and space are the experiential frameworks within which nothingness experiences this world. At no point do time and space become more than ideas, and at no point are these ideas necessary for spaciousness or nothingness to be infinitely and eternally itself.

As such, we could say the human experiential framework is completely imaginary, like a dream of nothingness being something. The human body possesses the unique gift of conditioned thinking. Nothingness is unconditioned, but as change apparently happens through time, one object in apparent space (the person) becomes capable of thinking and emoting according to how it changes in relation to how change is already happening.

Within this dynamic nothingness loses itself in its own apparent world, an impersonal creation morphing into a personal dream. Most folks are unconscious of the consciousness prior to conditioning, the unconditioned nothingness, not just that this nothingness 'exists', but that it is all that exists, and within a certain context, the only no-thing in existence.

So in a way, this is like Jung's dream realization. When you fall asleep at night, your thinking mind creates a dream world and populates it with characters and features. The mind is not localized in the dream, but rather, is everything in the dream itself. While you are free to play your role as the dream character, at no point is the person in bed sleeping 'actually' the character.

In the same way, nothingness is not limited to something, but here in form we appear that way and also possess the ability to transcend the 'idea' of being just something. Seeing through the 'ideas' of time and space as an overlay to 'your' (impersonally your) human creation is what some point to as the way. The seeing itself is seen from nothingness, and not through the eyes of something, like something in time and space.
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Old 26-01-2017, 02:02 PM
jimrich jimrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmalevine
what can we say about the spirit world (if there is one) and individuality? Do you mind elaborating a bit? Many thanks.
I can only say what I currently know or have experienced regarding the "spirit world" or the Afterlife. It is essentially the same as this physical world but without the fear, insecurity, greed, anger, sorrow, pain and other heavy, negative stuff we live with over here and those in spirit are VERY happy and VERY wise in that higher or freer domain. My late wife still enjoys chocolate ice cream with me and loves to visit stores and places right along with me. She is still an "individual" over there but of a much higher/happier order. I see all of this as more of the cosmic drama that's being staged by the Divine or Oneness, etc.
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