Nonduality and "The Guru".

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to review this topic further.

Unfortunately this explanation and your concept is antithetical to the "Oneness" "Non-duality" teachings of advanced spiritual traditions and another example of why your call for no expertise/no gurus/no teachers is so weak. i.e. it is evident that there is no practical understanding or experiential experience.

Let me explain something else. The Sages i.e. Gurus/teachers who you yourself picked this idea up from - first had the realization/experiential insight i.e. Gnosis into what genuine "non-duality/Oneness/Spirit/Universe/God/Consciousness" etc was - from there they used what means they had to "teach" i.e. words to do the best they could to 'point'

Hence, their words have the flavor and accuracy of Truth.

What you are proposing is to take a concept, forgo any expertise of genuine realization and try to mark the word into your world. Hence the inability to take challenge, trying to frame any logical analysis to your premises as "personal attacks" {Help!!!} etc.

i.e. Non-duality when not adopted through a genuine course of spiritual practice will always be weak, insubstantial, unable to withstand challenge, and moreso perhaps the least appealing point for an aspirant - it will always only remain a concept. Furthermore, it lacks any of the actual consequences of spiritual realization. It involves an actual shift in consciousness, God-Self and the like. It is not used as a concept to overlay onto the subjective world - "Oh this person is an idiot, but it is all Oneness so hallelujah perfection"

Anyway, back to my original post, which you tried to deflect by crying "personal attack" (funny considering you are posing as some authority figure) - you posit not requiring a Guru and at the same time you inherently position yourself as a Guru/Teacher. Not the first, but please at least be open minded about different paths for different people. {"No, Jesus, again NO!"}

Here are words from a teacher who do/did realize "Oneness" and "discrimination" and decided to speak to help others through encouraging paths of genuine inquiry:

Nisargadatta Maharaj: When you go beyond awareness, there is a state of non-duality, in which there is no cognition, only pure being. In the state of non-duality, all separation ceases.

In the stillness of the mind, I saw myself as I am: unbound.

When you go deep inside nothing is all there is. There is no 'I am'. The 'I am' merges in the Absolute.

PS Jyotir made some good points, are you ever going to respond to him?

You miss the point which is simply that what you think is relevant to end your spiritual search, may not be relevant for others. Even worse, by insisting that it is relevant for others, you place obstacles in their way which may not be relevant at all for them. Do not condemn others as lacking for having a different approach to yours. One size does not fit all.

Like most of your responses Joytir's post was a focus on the person with no attempt to address the issues. You will always have an opportunity to address the issues, just not the other nonsense as though you know me which of course you do not.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Iamit

To the moderators. Is there no moderation here to prevent posts like the above which focus on the person rather than the issues?

And then I read a later posting by Iamit:

All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

So I guess that even the posts we don't like are also perfect manifestations of Oneness.

Peace.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by iamthat

This reads as if including all as Oneness manifest is simply a mental judgement on whatever is presenting itself. There is value in having the mental understanding that all appearances are manifestations of an underlying Oneness. But when we actually realise Oneness as a reality then there is no need to ask ourselves anything, there is no need to try to include all as Oneness manifest. There is simply Oneness within which all things arise. This is not a condition of mental understanding.

Peace.

The state you describe may not immediatly occur after an initial resonance with All is One. There may follow a period where the seeker finds it difficult to accept some aspects of self, or the manifestation around us, as Oneness manifest. There can be questioning, something like I have described, where there is a tension between the resonance and the acceptance in which acceptance may win through and is completed. The resonance is then consolidated, something like in the way you describe it.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by iamthat

And then I read a later posting by Iamit:

All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

So I guess that even the posts we don't like are also perfect manifestations of Oneness.

Peace.

Yes and so are the appeals to the moderators:)......and so are the moderators:) Each the other and the One Love in Action dreaming difference where there is none.

Fun isn't it. Oneness has a sense of humour by manifesting all the different actors and yet playing all the parts 'Itself':)

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I prefer non dual.

With that being said, it is the goal to realize that you are that essence which is all things, that is arises from you, is you. That within you, that you are all of creation and beyond. It is all light, which is you.

The goal is to let go of the obstructions/upset/attachments to get to that realization.

It is not a thinking, a concept it is a being.

Kashmir Shaivism is really good at explaining this process. Would you like some quotes to help with this?

It really doesn't matter whether it is conceptual or not. Thats just another exclusion or blind spot to seeing all as Oneness manifest, including concepts and understanding. In that sense whatever condition you might imagine for connection to Oneness does not have to be met.

Thank you for the offer of information. Please post whatever you are referring to.

[sky]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Nice quote, sky123, for balance you should probably add no matter how many gurus or teachers you don't associate with!

Also, this assumes you know what fruits mean - ill will comes in many forms

Ill will does come by many names

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

You miss the point which is simply that what you think is relevant to end your spiritual search, may not be relevant for others. Even worse, by insisting that it is relevant for others, you place obstacles in their way which may not be relevant at all for them. Do not condemn others as lacking for having a different approach to yours. One size does not fit all.

Like most of your responses Joytir's post was a focus on the person with no attempt to address the issues. You will always have an opportunity to address the issues, just not the other nonsense as though you know me which of course you do not.

Are you talking to yourself? Because it sure sounds like - on a few levels...

Originally Posted by Iamit

There is not a state of "Being in Non-duality" as opposed to being in duality, as though it were possible to be in one or the other:) The whole of the manifestation is duality. There is not a part of the manifestation called nonduality that you can be in:)

Whilst in duality, you can encounter a concept called non duality which asserts that despite the very convincing, solid looking, appearance of difference that is duality, ALL is in fact ONE.

Having said that, there is the idea of enlightenment, which is often taken to mean that duality has been trancended and an apparent separate looking person is in fact no longer separate but has rather become One with everything.

But then again its not possible to know whether someone is enlightened or not. There are certain characteristics which are supposed to exemplify it, but the mind can easily construct these and hide behind as the separate self, contradicting every one of them:) It can often be very advantageous for the mind to do this, as there can be many benefits in terms of motor cars and other gifts.

:)

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by sky123

Ill will does come by many names

You could frame it like that - that would include conceit, anger, hate, jealousy, but often it is much more subtle and that is what I sense in you.

I like the quotes you bring to the threads, sky, but you also seem to be sniping in more than one instance - for whatever reason that obviously brings you joy and gives you great contentment in particular. So be it

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Like most of your responses Joytir's post was a focus on the person with no attempt to address the issues. You will always have an opportunity to address the issues, just not the other nonsense as though you know me which of course you do not.

Actually Jyotir brought up very pertinent points and addressed the very themes and issues you are conveying, but perhaps it was inconvenient for you, perhaps due to the insecurity of your beliefs {you mentioned this as a reason before so it logically flows, it comes from your psyche and is applicable to you, something which was increasingly clear as we conversed}.

The issues were raised but you have consistently sidestepped them, preferring to converse with yourself or at yourself and attacking anyone who questions the logic or validity of your concepts with shadow reasons.

Oneness is not stupidity, and we can be thankful for that - it is a full body mind spirit realization which shifts consciousness and yields tremendous wisdom and power for the aspirant - which is why it should not be demeaned or diminished through small, fearful and conceptual minds.

Take care.

[sky]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

You could frame it like that - that would include conceit, anger, hate, jealousy, but often it is much more subtle and that is what I sense in you.

I like the quotes you bring to the threads, sky, but you also seem to be sniping in more than one instance - for whatever reason that obviously brings you joy and gives you great contentment in particular. So be it

The mind is what it thinks, to make true, think true.....