The Difference a Guru Makes...

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I agree, find the guru within.

Regarding Hermann Hesse

Any spiritual or religious inspiration that he was looking for eluded him,[30] but the journey made a strong impression on his literary work.

Why take inspiration from someone who didn't find it? Your quote and advice is a perfect example of the dangers, waste of time and effort of trusting no one and learning on your own.

There is a much easier and life changing wondrous path compared to the one above.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Regarding Hermann Hesse

Any spiritual or religious inspiration that he was looking for eluded him,[30] but the journey made a strong impression on his literary work.

Why take inspiration from someone who didn't find it? Your quote and advice is a perfect example of the dangers, waste of time and effort of trusting no one and learning on your own.

There is a much easier and life changing wondrous path compared to the one above.

True, there are many much easier and life changing paths to walk. But one should always wonders if they lead to nirvana or to Jonestown and Waco.
Though Hesse may never have claimed to have found his enlightenment personally, I could not disagree more that Hesse failed to find spiritual inspiration. Hesse, and many many others, even some that would go by the title of guru, have given me a great deal of that inspiration as well. Siddhartha was given the opportunity to stay with Govinda and live out his life in the grove following the Buddha. Yet at the end Siddhartha moved on and found enlightenment, while Govinda was still seeking. Govinda was as dedicated a seeker as any, yet how much inspiration did he fail to see along his journey through life because his head was down looking at his feet to make sure they stayed on the path his guru had laid out for him.
Of course "Siddhartha" is just a story Hesse wrote, but then all of life is just a story to be experienced and explored. Gurus tell stories as well. The question is do you want to follow a story made up by another, a prescription for life written perhaps for another patient, or do you want to write your own story, and perhaps find inspiration in the journey along that path. We must all decide in life where to place our trust, and we must all deal with the consequences of that choice. Thankfully, I believe anyway, that though all paths, even the ones the gurus pave for us, though they seem to wander about aimlessly sometimes, at the end of the day advance in the same direction.

The gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

[Jyotir]

The problem that few who advocate for the very popular “I am my own guru” school want to admit, address, or discuss, is that being one’s own guide necessarily must include one’s own ignorance.

This means getting trapped in endless recursions of karma, samsara, and subsequent reactions thereof (this is the "wide gate") - all based in ignorant ego-mind, which is the entire reason for having a qualified teacher as an advantage.

By definition a real master is one who has superseded their own ignorance/ ego-mind, and has realized truth. Not only that, because they have become Highest Self and therefore are consciously aware of One Being - they embody one’s own Highest Self and therefore know the Will of the highest, as well as the karma, assets and liabilities of the chela, and therefore can guide much more effectively and expeditiously.

The fact that for many of a "conventional mindset", self-realization and these implications are seen as anathema, impossible, suspect, or even dangerous to human life adds to the confusion. Part of this is that some just aren't ready to have a teacher and therefore don't need one...as they see it, and so argue against it.

All of the foregoing doesn't preclude being one’s own teacher - of course that is an available option - it’s just infinitely more difficult, and according to some esoteric schools actually impossible and a dead-end.

~ J

[Altair]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So you mean (Buddhism, Jainism, 'Hinduism') let's not forget Taoism and Sufism.. How about all spiritual traditions talk about a teacher.

Sure, and you may name numerous other traditions that have their origins from the same specific geographical region.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

A realized being does have the answers, a non realized teacher doesn't but he does his best.

That is what one may believe and project upon such figures, that they “have all the answers”. And yet we see that they don’t, be that on any science topic, human psychology, or knowledge of individuals. They know a thing or two about a specific topic, then fail at other topics, like everyone else. Basically, there’s no superman or superwoman in this world, despite some cultures believing in such.

In other time periods we had pharaohs being viewed as gods in the flesh, representatives of gods, etc. Why not start worshipping them? It’s a lot of show and mesmerizing the senses, whether the authority is a pharaoh, guru, or a random girl in India put in a chair as representative of a goddess. People decide which ones they believe in.

I see just people.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by ketzer

True, there are many much easier and life changing paths to walk. But one should always wonders if they lead to nirvana or to Jonestown and Waco.
Though Hesse may never have claimed to have found his enlightenment personally, I could not disagree more that Hesse failed to find spiritual inspiration. Hesse, and many many others, even some that would go by the title of guru, have given me a great deal of that inspiration as well. Siddhartha was given the opportunity to stay with Govinda and live out his life in the grove following the Buddha. Yet at the end Siddhartha moved on and found enlightenment, while Govinda was still seeking. Govinda was as dedicated a seeker as any, yet how much inspiration did he fail to see along his journey through life because his head was down looking at his feet to make sure they stayed on the path his guru had laid out for him.
Of course "Siddhartha" is just a story Hesse wrote, but then all of life is just a story to be experienced and explored. Gurus tell stories as well. The question is do you want to follow a story made up by another, a prescription for life written perhaps for another patient, or do you want to write your own story, and perhaps find inspiration in the journey along that path. We must all decide in life where to place our trust, and we must all deal with the consequences of that choice. Thankfully, I believe anyway, that though all paths, even the ones the gurus pave for us, though they seem to wander about aimlessly sometimes, at the end of the day advance in the same direction.

Again, look at the OP.

Such a guru isn't telling you stories but helping you directly experience it.

A huge difference.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Altair

Sure, and you may name numerous other traditions that have their origins from the same specific geographical region.


That is what one may believe and project upon such figures, that they “have all the answers”. And yet we see that they don’t, be that on any science topic, human psychology, or knowledge of individuals. They know a thing or two about a specific topic, then fail at other topics, like everyone else. Basically, there’s no superman or superwoman in this world, despite some cultures believing in such.

In other time periods we had pharaohs being viewed as gods in the flesh, representatives of gods, etc. Why not start worshipping them? It’s a lot of show and mesmerizing the senses, whether the authority is a pharaoh, guru, or a random girl in India put in a chair as representative of a goddess. People decide which ones they believe in.

I see just people.

Hence your limitation.

If nobody can become realized or has ever been realized then there is no hope for you.

I can assure you from direct experience what is written in the OP is very, very possible.

[jonesboy]

Many traditions describe that it is nearly impossible to realize the "truth" without the guidance, help and support of a true guru. I thought it might be helpful to describe how/what is the meaningful difference a guru makes to the realization process.

There are many ways in which it can be described, but in simple terms, "we" are beings of "light". The normal person has many fears, issues, attachments and ego stuff which "obscure" this truth. Rather than notice the energy/light that we are, we get caught up in the perceptions and mind activity of life. We believe that all of the mental activity and the boundaries of the body are "us". A true guru has seen through the obstructions, perceived the light and in doing so, the light "flows through" them.

When one is ready and "finds" a guru, an energetic bond is formed. Our subconscious (or higher) self yearns for the "light" and so "connects" to the guru, which becomes a "form" for the light in the world for us. To form this energetic connection requires a very open, trusting and loving heart. The more open and trusting, the further the guru can take you. With full surrender and trust (which is very rare), a guru can take you all the way to the brink. The final step you must take on your own, as the guru itself, ultimately becomes an "attachment" that which must also be surrendered (let go).



Once the bond is formed, it is like one is sort of "drafting" off the guru. The guru can share the light and clarity of mind. Also, the light of guru is constantly "hitting" the obstructions of the student. If the student trusts and let's go of the energetic mental obstructions, it is like the guru "washes them away" with light. Lifetimes of karma and obstructions can be cleared quickly

Nothing here is anyone telling you what to do or what not to do.

Your life get's better or not.. Very easy to tell what is real or not.

The guru within.. has to let go of the issues.. the outside guru just helps a lot..

He does that by his being, his presence.. not by telling you stories or what to believe.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Hence your limitation.

If nobody can become realized or has ever been realized then there is no hope for you.

Call me and my perspective all you want. I see zero reason to idolize other human beings and I find the implications of doing such a thing dangerous. Throughout much of the history of civilization we’ve worshipped human beings, ((before that it was just animals and nature)) in both secular and spiritual contexts. It puts them on a pedestal, and their power very much depends on that worship. Sooner or later people realize that the ones they worship are just human beings, with strengths and weaknesses.

No supermen and superwomen, jonesboy. Just other humans.

The fact that humans don’t and can’t know everything there is to know isn’t a hopeless prospect, it’s IMO a beautiful realization, that we will always be moved, inspired and motivated to learn more.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Again, look at the OP.

Such a guru isn't telling you stories but helping you directly experience it.

A huge difference.

Unless of course, that is the story they are telling you. "Stay on the path I blazed on you will directly experience it. Stick with me and I will show you the path to nirvana, heaven, nothingness....etc. Believe me, this is not just a story, do as I tell you and you will experience it."
Perhaps they will and perhaps they won't? But we all must decide which paths we will travel and how far down we will go before we get off...or not. Just because some preface incredulous claims with the words "Believe me and you will see", is someone who we should automatically be giving credence to. Many who have done so have walked down the wide path to their own destruction.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Altair

Call me and my perspective all you want. I see zero reason to idolize other human beings and I find the implications of doing such a thing dangerous. Throughout much of the history of civilization we’ve worshipped human beings, ((before that it was just animals and nature)) in both secular and spiritual contexts. It puts them on a pedestal, and their power very much depends on that worship. Sooner or later people realize that the ones they worship are just human beings, with strengths and weaknesses.

No supermen and superwomen, jonesboy. Just other humans.

The fact that humans don’t and can’t know everything there is to know isn’t a hopeless prospect, it’s IMO a beautiful realization, that we will always be moved, inspired and motivated to learn more.

LOL, who is talking about idolizing someone?

Also, what is a human is the entire point of spirituality..

How can you be inspired to learn if you don't trust anyone to learn from?

Did you idolize your teachers in school? Did you learn math with help or how to read or did you learn how to read all on your own?

No need to make monsters where there are none.. thank you for the conversation.