Help; Ideas for discussion needed

[BodhiCris]

Several have asked about the topics thus far; here goes...
The Golden Rule
Courage
Humility
Compassion
Gratitude
Grace
Transformational Figures and Me (how we might look to Gautama Buddha, MLK jr, etc.)
Death (I tried to avoid this for months!!! It was a fantastic session)
What Happens Next (naturally, after death...)
The Purpose of Existence
Purpose of Ego
The Field (epigenetics and how we experience the field we cannot sense)
Why we believe
The Role of Spirituality in Humans
Duality
Consciousness
Growing Consciousness
Science and Faith
Universal Consciousness (I hurt a few ppls brain's on this one; deep in to Quantum Mechanics, zero point energy field, etc... One participant asked for an aspirin! lol)
Mindful Responses
Living Life Well
Beliefs Inform Reality
Meditation
Studying Anothers Tradition
Silence Is Golden (my favorite; I'm a practicing Buddhist, so silence has been transformational in that practice)
"The Way" (wuwai, Zen, the path people take to spirituality)
Near Death Experiences
Prayer
Joy

Originally Posted by BodhiCris

I also see consciousness as a fundamental force, like gravity, and living in dimensional space around but outside the scope of science. Any theory bringing the two together is bold, bound to cause strife and ultimately 'is' even though we can't prove it.

If I had to I'd say, it's all there is and I'd equate it to what science envisions as the unified field that might be revealed by a workable Theory of Everything, unifying all the known fundamental forces. Strict spiritual non-dual teachings align quite nicely with this view.

https://youtu.be/RJ4Uv-5_3VM?list=PL...XfywQvhBzzdrQA

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by BodhiCris

At my work, I run a group focusing on 'Faith Exploration'. (You read that right).

We've focused on many topics and while we avoid anything topical, linked to one religion or single issue subjects, we've touched on a wide variety of subjects (NDEs, Death, Courage, The Golden Rule, etc.- 26 in all)

What sort of topics would be on point for something like this? We definitely tie most topics back to science and research for and against the idea on target for that meeting. Like Mike R w/dirty Jobs, I'm out of ideas!

Appreciate this forum & I'm not going to judge any suggestions; just toss it out there. Thank you.

I have an idea for discussion...it is one that I have with myself quite frequently.

You could base it upon Bruce Lipton's book "The Biology of Belief" and incorporate Gregg Braden's work into it also.

Basically, the premise is this..

When it comes to nebulous concepts like Faith, Religion, Spirituality and God, nothing can be proven by anybody on either side of the debate...however, MANY will have opinions they purport to be factual and then try to impress those beliefs upon others...whether they are of the atheist bent or they are religious...whatever.

Now, the subconscious mind doesn't know or understand the difference between reality, illusion, delusion and that is why the "placebo effect" works so well... however, in the double blind experiment, the subject doesn't know if they are receiving a placebo or not...and the evidence suggests that those who receive the placebo have a much better and more measurable healing rate than those who do not receive it.

So, if one has faith or a belief, who is to say that it is "wrong" if they are improving holistically and drastically because of it?

Faith can move mountains..it can lengthen the telomeres of chromosomes, it can repair damaged DNA and even cause DNA to multistrand into fractal vortices...whatever one believes can have real life repercussions, contrary to those who will say that beliefs are fictitious and the product of an ignorant mindset...so, how is their life working out for THEM and why is it so important for them to have others believe as they do (especially if they whine and complain a lot otherwise)?

So, to what extent should one listen to others who say "belief in a concept is duality and thus wrong" when it is a matter of life and death? and how to see beyond the facade of others who constantly test your faith in order not to insult them through disagreement when the conclusion is reached that everyone else has a problem with your beliefs except for you and yet, you are not separate or special in any way?

So, how is that for a discussion to get things moving?

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I have an idea for discussion...it is one that I have with myself quite frequently.

You could base it upon Bruce Lipton's book "The Biology of Belief" and incorporate Gregg Braden's work into it also.

Basically, the premise is this..

When it comes to nebulous concepts like Faith, Religion, Spirituality and God, nothing can be proven by anybody on either side of the debate...however, MANY will have opinions they purport to be factual and then try to impress those beliefs upon others...whether they are of the atheist bent or they are religious...whatever.

Now, the subconscious mind doesn't know or understand the difference between reality, illusion, delusion and that is why the "placebo effect" works so well... however, in the double blind experiment, the subject doesn't know if they are receiving a placebo or not...and the evidence suggests that those who receive the placebo have a much better and more measurable healing rate than those who do not receive it.

So, if one has faith or a belief, who is to say that it is "wrong" if they are improving holistically and drastically because of it?

Faith can move mountains..it can lengthen the telomeres of chromosomes, it can repair damaged DNA and even cause DNA to multistrand into fractal vortices...whatever one believes can have real life repercussions, contrary to those who will say that beliefs are fictitious and the product of an ignorant mindset...so, how is their life working out for THEM and why is it so important for them to have others believe as they do (especially if they whine and complain a lot otherwise)?

So, to what extent should one listen to others who say "belief in a concept is duality and thus wrong" when it is a matter of life and death? and how to see beyond the facade of others who constantly test your faith in order not to insult them through disagreement when the conclusion is reached that everyone else has a problem with your beliefs except for you and yet, you are not separate or special in any way?

So, how is that for a discussion to get things moving?

Well,I agree with everything you've said,so I don't think that there's much to discuss.

Originally Posted by BodhiCris

Ah, this is a funky chestnut...

My opinion on faith/belief goes as follows.
The ineffable (re; consciousness, universal energy, etc.) must exist without quantitative measurement or reductive categorization. Then you have faith and belief.
Belief is when you have received or told yourself a "Truth" about the ineffable and have boxed out all other options without exploration.

Faith is when you accept the ineffable based on experience, and trust our puny human capacity is incapable of knowing more. The more is out there but does not require categorization or measurement. It is.

I remember Sadguru commenting the act of belief is a mini-death, eliminating any other options beyond the hyper-narrow belief. Literal acceptance of any religious text is belief; reading the meaning and context of the text and attempting to understand the nature of the teachings is an act of faith. Basically; it's opposite belief in our lovely dualistic world.

Well now, I certainly have had my share of funky chestnuts, if not ineffable, then often inedible. I used to just go to the store around the holidays and reach into the bin with the scooper and get me a bunch of chestnuts to roast. But with time and experience I realized that not all chestnuts are the same. It is such a disappointment when you put on your favorite Christmas movie and wash, score, and roast those nuts only to end up throwing away half or more because you find them rotten and inedible, and then you find you are still hungry. I have gotten much better as the years go by at figuring out which chestnuts in the bin are good and which are inedible. Now I pick up each chestnut and examine it one at a time. Based on how solid it feels and looks I can often tell which one will be good and which will be rotten. True I can’t actually see inside the chestnuts, and I do still select some that are no good, but now I end up much more satisfied even if I am not quite stuffed full. I don’t worry so much about what there is to eat, and I am able to focus on the movie more intently, it makes it more enjoyable.

I suppose the problem with categorizing things and believing in things is the danger of forgetting that it is I who categorized them and I who created the belief (or even the thing). If I then accept my beliefs as truths, and use them to judge other beliefs as true and false, I end up pinning myself down in one place while an infinity of experience and other truths stretch out in every direction. I don’t know whether or how much of the more that is out there is categorizable, measurable, or effable, but whatever it is I will never experience it if I cling too tightly to my faith in what I currently believe. It is not just fear of the unknown that keeps us from exploring and finding out new things, but also fear that we may find that what we thought we knew was solid and dependable will turn out to not be so reliable after all. It seems to me whether a belief is a kind of mini-death or not depends on what use the belief is put to. If it is used to barricade the door against all conflicting beliefs, then yes, the process of growth through life in that particular respect is over.

It once bothered me when I held a belief and later found an opposite belief and they both seemed true. Which should I accept as the truth? But then I ran across quotes by others, nobel laureates among them, that assert their own belief that the opposite of one great truth can be equally true. So if I am crazy in that belief, then I have good company. I am sure my puny human capacity is not capable of knowing many things, infinitely many perhaps, probably including what ultimately it is and is not capable of knowing. But I have faith that I can go on searching and experiencing and that ultimately it will be ok. I don’t need to cling to the shore, I cannot drown.

Yes, life is a dualistic experience, and perhaps that is a good clue for where to look for truth next. Where we find yin, if we keep looking, we will also find yang. The trick perhaps is then learning to see them both as truth at the same time, the two are in fact one, ineffable, unthinkable, and unbelievable though it may seem.

“The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.”
― Niels Bohr

“There is one thought I have had, Govinda, which you will again think is a jest or folly: that is, in every truth the opposite is equally true. For example, a truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity. When the illustrious Buddha taught about the world, he had to divide it into Samsara and Nirvana, into illusion and truth, into suffering and salvation. One cannot do otherwise, there is no other method for those who teach. But the world itself, being in and around us, is never one-sided. Never is a man or a deed wholly Samsara or wholly Nirvana; never is a man wholly a saint or a sinner. This only seems to be so because we suffer the illusion that time is something real. Time is not real, Govinda. I have realized this repeatedly. And if time is not real, then the dividing line that seems to lie between this world and eternity, between suffering and bliss, between good and evil, is also an illusion.”
― Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

[BodhiCris]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I have an idea for discussion...it is one that I have with myself quite frequently.

You could base it upon Bruce Lipton's book "The Biology of Belief" and incorporate Gregg Braden's work into it also.
-snip-
So, how is that for a discussion to get things moving?

Fab! We'd done something around manifestation but the digging in around biological epigenetics is a twist well worth exploring.
Specifically around the observer effect & our will altering experimental data or our own lives and bodies.

I don't know else how to explain late stage brain tumors evaporating, masses in the mouth preventing speech dissipating long enough for someone to go home, speak their truth and then return to hospice to die the next day...

When we truly, urgently and passionately desire something, the universe rearranges the pieces on the chessboard to allow it to occur. It doesn't take a special person for this to happen but special circumstances to allow awakening to the true nature of reality and to embody the energetic intensity needed to trigger change at the DNA level (among other super small bits) and make 'miracles' happen.

My sincere thanks! This one is juicy goodness.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by BodhiCris

Fab! We'd done something around manifestation but the digging in around biological epigenetics is a twist well worth exploring.
Specifically around the observer effect & our will altering experimental data or our own lives and bodies.

I don't know else how to explain late stage brain tumors evaporating, masses in the mouth preventing speech dissipating long enough for someone to go home, speak their truth and then return to hospice to die the next day...

When we truly, urgently and passionately desire something, the universe rearranges the pieces on the chessboard to allow it to occur. It doesn't take a special person for this to happen but special circumstances to allow awakening to the true nature of reality and to embody the energetic intensity needed to trigger change at the DNA level (among other super small bits) and make 'miracles' happen.

My sincere thanks! This one is juicy goodness.

You are more than welcome...and funny how you should mention "miracles".

As I went on YouTube tonight, I had a recommendation for me..an episode of an old series I used to watch years ago called "It's A Miracle".

The episode was all about this newborn baby, adopted at birth.

As she grew up, she had a love for the Sunday comics in the newspaper.

Her adoptive parents told her nothing about her birth parents...they didn't know who they were anyway and couldn't help her find them.

The young girl grew up, got married and had a son of her own who also loved to read the Sunday comics and he had an amazing talent to be able to draw whatever he saw and then make comics of his own.

One Sunday, the comics the mother and son both loved to read featured a brand new strip...it was called "Luann" by Greg Evans and the comic strip soon became the pair's favourite which they both looked forward to reading every week.

The mother decided to do some research on the comic strip for her son and found that Greg Evans was married and had a wife called Betty and they both moved to Los Angeles after being English teachers in Australia during the 1970's.

Not long after, the woman's adoptive parents phoned and said they had found the adoption papers which had the solicitor's name on it...so, the woman contacted the solicitor who told her under the freedom of information act that her birth parents were called Greg and Betty Evans and they were both English teachers in Australia.

A very tearful reunion followed and Greg had passed all of his genes to a grandson he had never met before...

Yep, Divine Intervention was definitely at play there...

[BodhiCris]

It's stories like these (and James Leininger among others) sends one into jaw dropped, head shaking territory.
personally, I'd rather not know how or why; it's cool to just have something obviously legitimate happening which by all appearances is 'magic' or fantastical.
Happy Friday!

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by BodhiCris

It's stories like these (and James Leininger among others) sends one into jaw dropped, head shaking territory.
personally, I'd rather not know how or why; it's cool to just have something obviously legitimate happening which by all appearances is 'magic' or fantastical.
Happy Friday!

Happy Friday..well, technically it's Saturday over here now..

As I love being in "jaw dropped, head shaking territory", I decided to familiarize myself with the James Leininger story...that was also quite remarkable.

Honestly, there is nothing to know about how or why with such things because it IS magic and fantastical which is why I love to hear them.

In that very moment when one's jaw drops, so does the mind... directly into the heart space when one realises that such things were never meant to be "known" or "figured out" ..not possible anyway...and for a skeptic, this is like giving the analytical mind a well deserved rest from thinking way too much...it is why I love such real life, true stories which I cannot debunk...it has me throwing my hands up in the air going "you got me there".

[Shivani Devi]

How about this for a discussion..

About 2-3 times a week, I am wracked with migraines, vertigo, nausea, weakness, fainting spells, gastrointestinal upsets, chest pain, palpitations, and a choking sensation in my throat.

These attacks can last anywhere from a few hours to all day..sometimes I don't get a break from it for weeks on end.

Yes, I have been to the doctor....many, many doctors and I have undergone hundreds of tests over the past 20 years.

Their diagnosis? Psychosomatic Disorder. My subconscious mind is trying to kill me and one day, it will succeed and there will be no physical "cause of death" beyond my heart just stopping.

After going to doctors for this 2-3 times a month for the past 20 years, only to be labeled with such things....."Somatization"..."Conversion Disorder"..."Fictitious Disorder"..."Munchausens"..."Hypochondria" I have learned through conditioning NOT to go to the doctor when I feel sick...no matter HOW sick I feel. It took a while to condition myself to do that.

As I cannot tell the difference between "real symptoms" and "physical hallucinations" there will be no medical intervention for me....if I live, I live and if I die, I die. It is God's Will and in His hands...but of course I still go to the doctors twice a year for a check up just to keep my family happy.

In doing research on unexplainable deaths, I found out that what I have is rare, but also not totally unheard of...happening more than doctors would ever admit to.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...rself-to-death

The treatment option is to externalize my awareness to constantly "ground myself" so, meditation is totally out of the question, however mindfulness isn't.

The more radical approach is to adopt the Wim Hof method to make the body and mind more resilient to damage caused through forced adaptation...I mean, my adrenal glands are totally shot and doctors can agree on THAT at least..so my "cause of death" will most probably read "adrenal exhaustion".

Yeah, I have been taking adaptogenic compounds for about a year now with little to no effect...there goes that old "nocebo effect" again and some doctors have even said to me "you don't need a doctor, you need a priest" and I start wondering whether my head is gonna spin around while I start speaking in Latin and vomiting pea soup.

It is difficult explaining it to my loved ones when they see my body wracked with pain, having seizures, passing out and they say "what is wrong with you?" only for me to say "nothing" and then I get accused of fabrication as IF I had any choice/say in the matter...I only wish that I DID so that I could pi$$ this annoyance off once and for all.

I have been to hypnotherapists, psychiatrists, psychologists...been on every medication from Anafranil to Zoloft...done CBT, DBT, NLP, EFT, EMDR...I could write a book on all those things and nothing anybody has tried has even managed to scratch the surface of this.

So for now, to keep myself happy, I have chalked it all up to "Kundalini Psychosis" and/or "Demonic Possession" and in such cases there isn't anything that anybody else CAN do...the only thing one can do as an individual is to stop fighting it and putting up resistance and just give in...surrender to it. Death may occur and it may not occur...but whether it does or not shouldn't be the issue.

It is just one hell of a scary ride...but I also understand the more one lets go of the handlebars, the less scarier the ride is.