The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[Gem]

Opinions are fine. There is value in having convictions to live by, but opinions which are important to you are not necessarily important to anyone else.

Originally Posted by Gem

Would you please list these restraints?

Maybe I should have said constraints.
You do a pretty good job in highlighting them in your next answer to Raziel..

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, and the meaning is rich in its context - so the listening skill is something that doesn't reach a conclusion. The conclusions oversimplifications... like we may read the abstract and say we understand the research...

Constraint/restraint 1) Don't let your inability to listen skillfully reach a "false" conclusion As they are oversimplified half-truths

In my case, speaking in meta-conversation - a conversation about the conversation - I said a lot of things about intention and outcome, ethics including consent, and how self-awareness is the single criteria for 'spiritual conversation'.

Contraint/restraint 2) Your self awareness is what matters in a spiritual conversation. So talking about your intention, perception and ethical values is good. All else is labeled not self aware and thus has no place here.

Funny how this one seems to be interpreted so differently in the self aware, I mean my self aware, because your self- aware is wrong. I mean... huh?

I went on about the difficulties we will likely face due to relentless self awareness and the likelihood of reacting to old trigger points and so forth. I covered the ways people are likely to become sensitive in this regard, and the care required given the circumstances... and probably some more, but these spring to mind. So there is a vast contextual scope to the 'topic' of this thread. Other's here have expanded on the skillset involved and that side of it is equally nuanced in meaning.

3) Context matters, so assume reactivity based on old triggerpoints which have nothing to so with Self awareness and can be discarded..

Hence, the understanding isn't in what is said itself, the understanding is within ourselves, and this isn't a learning project in any usual sense. In so far as the conversation involves those conversing, it draws attention to the narrative - not out here on the thread - but inside each of our heads.

4) So you can listen, but all you hear is not what is being said.

In our heads, replies are made that are not written in posts. At least that is true of me, so what I'm listening to is that internal formation of words, the reactions that might drive them, the intent behind them.

5) this isn't a conversation, its an exercise in self awareness.

The subtlety of this thread's topic is along those lines, but in a more simplisticly said, it's speaking and listening from where the conversation actually takes place.

1) Don't let your inability to listen skillfully reach a "false" conclusion As they are oversimplified half-truths

2) Your self awareness is what matters in a spiritual conversation. So talking about your intention, perception and ethical values is good. All else is labeled not self aware and thus has no place here.

3) Context matters, so assume reactivity based on old triggerpoints which have nothing to so with Self awareness and can be discarded..

4) So you can listen, but all you hear is not what is being said.

5) this isn't a conversation, its an exercise in self awareness.

Just from the one post, these are the rules my self aware inner child feels constricted bye. I see now why you perceive any spiritual conversation as a difficult exercise.

With Love
Eelco

Originally Posted by Gem

Opinions are fine. There is value in having convictions to live by, but opinions which are important to you are not necessarily important to anyone else.

I see, I could have saved me the trouble of writing it out.
You recap them beautifully in this one sentence.

Again not exactly what is said here, but how our self awareness may interpret this statement.

Mine concludes, falsely because conclusion, you may think whatever you like, I won't change anything I think because of it.
Which is the same as putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "nananana" Only that you have learned to use words to describe exactly that childish response.

WIth Love
Eelco

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Gem

Opinions are fine. There is value in having convictions to live by, but opinions which are important to you are not necessarily important to anyone else.

The same could also be said for belief.

Opinion is experience based - an understanding of the subject raised.

Belief isn't necessarily something that has even been experienced.

Often stating that something is opinion is accepting that opposition exists.

When presenting a Spiritual belief the opposite is often regarded as insulting unless a person is completely comfortable with themselves.

Opinion can hold value to us - even if it is an opposing one.

~

Questioning ones opinion is accepted whereas questioning ones belief somehow doesn't seem to be.

.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello Eelco,
Well, here's the whole post of mine in response to your concerns.

Peace & blessings
7L

It seems only fair to mention that the exactly it, in my understanding was only meant to a bolded portion of my post before that answer.
An agrreeing to just..

What I think happens is that when we find universal truths, we are only capable of expressing our understanding of it. Using the images and translated understanding in symbols that are personally meaningful, but are alien to others. Not realizing our explanations don't make sense to someone else we feel misunderstood, belittled and often attacked for our beliefs/understanding. Which in turn causes all kinds of other communicational problems..

disregarding this...

I don't find the conversation difficult. Just that most people don't seem to agree with my findings is what causes stress. Also the fact that many a spiritual conversation seems to hit the perceived dichotomy of different belief systems.

In my experience many spiritually inclined people will knowingly or unknowingly belittle there conversation partner oozing an air which spells you don't understand the elevated position I am speaking from. That precise attitude is what I find aggravating, and after years of letting it slide I intended to no longer do that. Saying it out loud when I see it.

In the end though that as about as useful as saying projecting the feeling that I find so appalling in the spiritual inclined..

ShantiMayi once said (and I'm probably misquoting what she said in lieu of my understanding from it) that the evil ones unite in bringing about chaos. As that is easy to do from a personal point of view. The blessed ones though can't seem to unite on anything which is why chaos seems so prevalent.

never mind though..
If ever you get a chance to look at that documentary.
Don't do it because I said so. Do it because it is really interesting and insightful material into the psyche of humans and how they process language and peer pressure.

With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Eelco

Maybe I should have said constraints.
You do a pretty good job in highlighting them in your next answer to Raziel..



Constraint/restraint 1) Don't let your inability to listen skillfully reach a "false" conclusion As they are oversimplified half-truths

I didn't say that.

Contraint/restraint 2) Your self awareness is what matters in a spiritual conversation.

That I did say.

So talking about your intention, perception and ethical values is good.

Didn't say

There's no pressure or obligation on anyone to make self disclosures regarding their intent, perception, ethics, etc. but they can if they want to.

All else is labeled not self aware and thus has no place here.

Didn't say.

Funny how this one seems to be interpreted so differently in the self aware, I mean my self aware, because your self- aware is wrong. I mean... huh?

Didn't say.
There is only one kind of self aware, and I generally encourage it.

3) Context matters, so assume reactivity based on old triggerpoints which have nothing to so with Self awareness and can be discarde.

Context matters in so far as meaning matters.

I already understood that this subject would likely raise difficulties and sensitivities, and I explained why in the OP.

4) So you can listen, but all you hear is not what is being said.

I personally listen closely to what is said.

5) this isn't a conversation, its an exercise in self awareness

.

It is a conversation in which we are mindful of every word. That necessitates self awareness.

1) Don't let your inability to listen skillfully reach a "false" conclusion As they are oversimplified half-truts

Didn't say that.

Just from the one post, these are the rules my self aware inner child feels constricted bye. I see now why you perceive any spiritual conversation as a difficult exercise.

With Love
Eelco

(I confirmed what I said and didn't day)

This isn't a place where the inner child has the right sort of safety. There is a likelihood that expression will be pounced on, and we saw examples of it in these pages, but I'm not involved in any of that. I continue to discourage personalising subjects.

It doesn't matter what you did or didn't say.

It's how it was perceived and put to practice in this very thread by those who hang on your every word.

That's where the responsibility comes in.
Well in my view at least.

Pontius Pilatus washed his hands in innocence as well.

Never mind though. This is just my self awareness talking.
Nothing to do with "you".

With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Eelco

It doesn't matter what you did or didn't say.

It's how it was perceived and put to practice in this very thread by those who hang on your every word.

That's where the responsibility comes in.
Well in my view at least.

Pointius Pilatus didn't washed his hands in innocence as well.

Never mind though. This is just my self awareness talking.
Nothing to do with "you".

With Love
Eelco

I mention this because I speak much like a singer listens to their own voice in order to produce exaction in their tone. Like a singer, if I miss a note, I go slightly out of tune, I notice it straight away.

People listen because it's a practiced and refined voice. They expect a high level of skill, and I want to provide the full depth of timbre so as to move them. People listen only because they want to be affected, and it takes a lot of concentration to deliver a song well. I have the tone which moves them, but only because I have full attention on my own voice.

That's how I know I didn't say "false" (as you had put in quotations), so I did a word search of the last ten pages to find out who's song it was. The results were interesting.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Raziel

The same could also be said for belief.

Yes.

Opinion is experience based - an understanding of the subject raised.

Belief isn't necessarily something that has even been experienced.

Often stating that something is opinion is accepting that opposition exists.

When presenting a Spiritual belief the opposite is often regarded as insulting unless a person is completely comfortable with themselves.

Opinion can hold value to us - even if it is an opposing one.

~

Questioning ones opinion is accepted whereas questioning ones belief somehow doesn't seem to be.

.

From my perspective I already know my opinions are not particulatly important, and can be uninformed. The strange thing is, when I am well informed on something I can't form a solid opinion on it. I ssem to have stronger opinions on things I know little about. To me, this relates to belief, because I only have beliefs because I don't know everything. In that I know I don't know - the known unknowns - I also realise my beliefs are not true, which really undermines them as beliefs. I seem to have lost all my dogma because of this. I still have to believe something in lieu of not knowing, so what I believe is just the best I have to go on for now. Life will continue to show where they don't make sense. New evidence will undermine them as they currently are. me being as irrational as human being are, I see that some of my beliefs are ludicrous and completely untrue, but still hold them none-the-less... but in those cases I also know those beliefs are doomed, and the truth is I face a great deal of uncertainty.

Originally Posted by Gem

That's how I know I didn't say "false" (as you had put in quotations), so I did a word search of the last ten pages to find out who's song it was. The results were interesting.

I should imagine so..
I know what I say, my voice isn't rearly as eloquent and tuned as yours.
I am giving my imperpretation of your and possibly others harmony.

I agree it's not a pleasant song at all, but as you found out..
It's mine.

WIth Love
Eelco