Might as well start another meditation thread.

[Gem]

Hello.

Long time no see.

Originally Posted by TaoSandwich

I had a great analogy come to me today. My pen burst on my hand before an important work presentation and a went to wash my hands over and over to get the ink off of them. When I had finished, I looked at the ring that I always wear and noticed that it was glistening and clean from all of the washes.

To me, meditation gives one the chance to wash away the dirt of the mind, namely, egoism, racing thoughts, and craving. This may only happen for a second, since the mind is highly conditioned (neural networks are extremely stubborn) but over repeated washes, the contamination starts to fall away... and you may find that your virtues are more radiant as a result. Perhaps those things are one and the same :P

True that egotistic behaviours won't continue for long under the gaze of meditation, but still, one must know what meditation is and implement it correctly in order to have that affect... for example, we don't look at a flower to achieve something else, we look at it to admire it. There's no desire in looking at the flowers, yet it's enjoyable none-the-less.

As for formal instruction, Gem, to pull an old Zen cliche, I'd say that it is just as wrong to say "there is no teaching to transmit" as it is to say "there is a teaching". If helping others actively brings on a sense of egoism, that doesn't mean that all people should refrain from it entirely... Rather, one should be aware of these feelings arising and either beware of how they affect the actual instruction. If you think they in any way obscure the teaching, then that is something you should work on before sharing, but that does not necessarily mean that no one should teach.

I think the instructors have means of justification that perpetuate their position as instructors, and I don't have a gripe about techniques per se, but when the activity is done as means to an end, that action becomes of lesser importance, and secondary to the end game. This means that expectation has been aroused and that desire for an imagined future has been instilled.

True, when serving others, one does need to be acutely aware of egotism, and the desire to help is a clear indicator of egotism. When the compassionate kindness arises form some depth of purity a persons actions are intended toward the happiness of all. That just occurs naturally and I don't try to help anyone at all, but for the most part, my acts are beneficial, because by cultivating purity within myself, everyone else benefits, yet I have no investment in it.

fact, interacting with the people of the world in general brings on all sorts of negative emotions, even the most subtle and unavoidable of which can lead to us losing our sense of oneness and sometimes harming others. Should one then become a hermit, and if you think so, would withholding one's self from others do more harm or good?

-TaoSandwich

Sometimes, having done harm unintentionally, causes a person to fear themselves and what they might do to hurt people, so they retreat. Maybe not to a cave, but in a way where they won't form relationships that are close enough that they could hurt someone. They then become harmless, and from there, will only become more and more beneficial, because they obviously wish to break that behaviour, and their retreat was purely intended for the benefit of others. See how wishing to break destructive behaviours, i.e, purifying, is reflected in the good will toward others?

Gem,

Good to see you again. Life has kept me busy as of late, so I've had little time to post until now!

Originally Posted by Gem

True that egotistic behaviours won't continue for long under the gaze of meditation, but still, one must know what meditation is and implement it correctly in order to have that affect... for example, we don't look at a flower to achieve something else, we look at it to admire it. There's no desire in looking at the flowers, yet it's enjoyable none-the-less.

I would agree that there is no desire in meditation, nor any intention, but perhaps due to the stage in my life that I am at, the most consistent effect of meditation has been this (with others such as a greater general feeling of well-being and surprisingly, a greater degree of gregariousness in my interactions with others) over the vast majority of the time that I have practiced. Perhaps it would be best to provide a caveat that this has been perhaps the most overwhelming experience as part of MY meditation.

Originally Posted by Gem

I think the instructors have means of justification that perpetuate their position as instructors, and I don't have a gripe about techniques per se, but when the activity is done as means to an end, that action becomes of lesser importance, and secondary to the end game. This means that expectation has been aroused and that desire for an imagined future has been instilled.

I think we are coming from the same place here. Many methods are simply taught as a way to achieve a meditative state and although the states brought about by each sort of meditation can be subtly different, I think that there is little harm in teaching methods (especially if people are encourage to explore various methods so that their meditation can be adaptable to their various stages of life, spiritual development, emotional states, etc).

The harm comes when a specific outcome of meditation is seen as the "right" outcome. As discussed with your previous quote and my response to it, everyone's response will be different, so the best someone can do is discuss with the students the differences between the methods and what effects they have on their minds (or if they are a spiritual teacher of some sort, what effects they have had on their students' minds). While discussing "ends" and "shoulds" is very risky business, discussing what may be of use if one is meditating while elated, depressed, in pain, distracted, only has a short time to sit, etc. is less risky and potentially useful.

Originally Posted by Gem

True, when serving others, one does need to be acutely aware of egotism, and the desire to help is a clear indicator of egotism. When the compassionate kindness arises form some depth of purity a persons actions are intended toward the happiness of all. That just occurs naturally and I don't try to help anyone at all, but for the most part, my acts are beneficial, because by cultivating purity within myself, everyone else benefits, yet I have no investment in it.

I think that is just one side of the coin. If someone you care about is drowning and you feel a sense of alarm or empathy and jump in to help them, this is not egotism at all. I've seen friends going through things that I have gone through and have thus described to them things that have helped me with no intention of getting any "feel goods" (aside from the "feel goods" that come with the possibility that they may not have to go through things that I have). I have indeed experienced the egotistical desire to "help", but I think this is a perversion not a reality... Cultivating self can also be perverted if one does so for the wrong reasons (because it brings bliss, or because interactions with others is often painful).

If I may divide things into "pure" and "impure', there is a pure version of each: cultivating your own purity as though every action you took could greatly affect another's life (it does and judging by your below comment, you seem to deeply realize that). And also, when we are able/qualified to, and ONLY when we are able, helping others out of a feeling of urgency and empathy with their situation.

Originally Posted by Gem

Sometimes, having done harm unintentionally, causes a person to fear themselves and what they might do to hurt people, so they retreat. Maybe not to a cave, but in a way where they won't form relationships that are close enough that they could hurt someone. They then become harmless, and from there, will only become more and more beneficial, because they obviously wish to break that behaviour, and their retreat was purely intended for the benefit of others. See how wishing to break destructive behaviours, i.e, purifying, is reflected in the good will toward others?

I can definitely understand you there... hurting someone leaves you a bit ginger in interactions with others. I would add, though, that pains caused to you and me (as opposed to that we cause to others) by interacting with others are often learning experiences and chances (albeit occasionally extremely painful chances) to mature on the path.

Anyways, I think we are coming from the same place on a lot of these things. Good to talk with you again!

-TaoSandwich

[Miss Hepburn]

I realized I wrote the below to just give another perspective of meditation
from an avid meditater of decades...any form of meditation I support...

If there is no intention or desire in, during, around meditation, as mentioned..
and dare I say, expectation...
then why would someone even want to meditate?
Ha...it would sound pretty dry and blah, and stagnant to me!

Even as I approach my meditation area I feel joy.
I am filled with intent and expectation...similar to when I plant a flower seed...if I didn't have desire, I think
I would be dead!

I know what is about to happen! At some point, my Divine Father,
the Holiest of Presences is going to appear!
Fill my inner vision completely...and 'out of nowhere', ha...so funny could happen at anytime ...
like a guest knocking at your door...could be the 2nd hour, the third or the fifth...it is when 'He' pleases...taking my breath away.

And "He'' is going to do what He always does....take me...fill my heart with
telepathic complete sentences of such intimacy of His Love...
Telling me deep things and revealing profound reasons for existence...
telling me of His heart's desire for Man...

He may take me to places I read NDErs go...Star systems, swirling
'quasars', fireworks of color, kaleidoscope patterns...and
sometimes 'through'...thru to a different place...crystal clear,
crisp, more real than what I see with my eyes open...the 'Other Side"?

I have intention alright...and my heart waits, becomes still, remains empty like a cup to be filled...all while
it is sitting on the edge of it's seat expecting the Infinite Source of All That Is to visit me.

Needless to say, I am spiritual. LOL.

So ... another approach to meditation.

[Faith33]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I realized I wrote the below to just give another perspective of meditation
from an avid meditater of decades...any form of meditation I support...

If there is no intention or desire in, during, around meditation, as mentioned..
and dare I say, expectation...
then why would someone even want to meditate?
Ha...it would sound pretty dry and blah, and stagnant to me!

Even as I approach my meditation area I feel joy.
I am filled with intent and expectation...similar to when I plant a flower seed...if I didn't have desire, I think
I would be dead!

I know what is about to happen! At some point, my Divine Father,
the Holiest of Presences is going to appear!
Fill my inner vision completely...and 'out of nowhere', ha...so funny could happen at anytime ...
like a guest knocking at your door...could be the 2nd hour, the third or the fifth...it is when 'He' pleases...taking my breath away.

And "He'' is going to do what He always does....take me...fill my heart with
telepathic complete sentences of such intimacy of His Love...
Telling me deep things and revealing profound reasons for existence...
telling me of His heart's desire for Man...

He may take me to places I read NDErs go...Star systems, swirling
'quasars', fireworks of color, kaleidoscope patterns...and
sometimes 'through'...thru to a different place...crystal clear,
crisp, more real than what I see with my eyes open...the 'Other Side"?

I have intention alright...and my heart waits, becomes still, remains empty like a cup to be filled...all while
it is sitting on the edge of it's seat expecting the Infinite Source of All That Is to visit me.

Needless to say, I am spiritual. LOL.

So ... another approach to meditation.

I love what you've written here, Ms. H!
This is exactly how I feel going into my meditative state, filled with strong desire and yes, expectations. I know that all my questions will be answered, if not now, then in due time....also love the way I feel straight after...the connection that has been made....just wow.

Can't wait to see what's in store for me tonight;)

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Hope33

...the connection that has been made....just wow.

Can't wait to see what's in store for me tonight;)

Me, either!!
Wow, I have to find a place to write what my friend just told me!!
First time she has had God talk to her in complete sentences, also...
some deep stuff!
Universal truths always...not just some personal stuff
... I have found.

[Faith33]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Me, either!!
Wow, I have to find a place to write what my friend just told me!!
First time she has had God talk to her in complete sentences, also...
some deep stuff!
Universal truths always...not just some personal stuff
... I have found.

This, I need to hear!
Please do, Ms.H...
Anywhere...just write! lol...
(someone's eager..lol)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by TaoSandwich

Gem,

Good to see you again. Life has kept me busy as of late, so I've had little time to post until now!

Good to see you, too.

I would agree that there is no desire in meditation, nor any intention, but perhaps due to the stage in my life that I am at, the most consistent effect of meditation has been this (with others such as a greater general feeling of well-being and surprisingly, a greater degree of gregariousness in my interactions with others) over the vast majority of the time that I have practiced. Perhaps it would be best to provide a caveat that this has been perhaps the most overwhelming experience as part of MY meditation.

That sounds awesome.

I think we are coming from the same place here. Many methods are simply taught as a way to achieve a meditative state and although the states brought about by each sort of meditation can be subtly different, I think that there is little harm in teaching methods (especially if people are encourage to explore various methods so that their meditation can be adaptable to their various stages of life, spiritual development, emotional states, etc).

Of course I practice formal meditation, so can't possibly be adverse to methodology, but what meditation is underpins how the practice is applied, and without understanding the principle, it can't be applied effectively.

The harm comes when a specific outcome of meditation is seen as the "right" outcome. As discussed with your previous quote and my response to it, everyone's response will be different, so the best someone can do is discuss with the students the differences between the methods and what effects they have on their minds (or if they are a spiritual teacher of some sort, what effects they have had on their students' minds). While discussing "ends" and "shoulds" is very risky business, discussing what may be of use if one is meditating while elated, depressed, in pain, distracted, only has a short time to sit, etc. is less risky and potentially useful.

There are many methods of meditation, but if all these are so vastly different in nature, what then is meditation itself? These various practices often have no resemblance to each other, and that varieties implies that any nature of activity is a meditation practice, or we are forced to conclude that an array of completely dissimilar things are arbitrarily, 'meditation', so I merely suggest that the mode of practice is not meditation itself.

I think that is just one side of the coin. If someone you care about is drowning and you feel a sense of alarm or empathy and jump in to help them, this is not egotism at all.

Perfect example.

I've seen friends going through things that I have gone through and have thus described to them things that have helped me with no intention of getting any "feel goods" (aside from the "feel goods" that come with the possibility that they may not have to go through things that I have). I have indeed experienced the egotistical desire to "help", but I think this is a perversion not a reality... Cultivating self can also be perverted if one does so for the wrong reasons (because it brings bliss, or because interactions with others is often painful).

Yep. Which is why I keep saying the the technique needs to be applied correctly, and 'correctly' means according to the principle of meditation. What it is has to be applied to how it is done.

Totally. I wish I could say it so eloquently. Of course there is a beautiful warm cosiness when my life serves to benefit another living being's life, but within hour, it's gone. Since I have no investment in any outcome and understand that others are the self determined masters withing their destiny, I simply enjoy the warmth while it lasts, like one enjoys the flowers during the time in which they bloom.

If I may divide things into "pure" and "impure', there is a pure version of each: cultivating your own purity as though every action you took could greatly affect another's life (it does and judging by your below comment, you seem to deeply realize that). And also, when we are able/qualified to, and ONLY when we are able, helping others out of a feeling of urgency and empathy with their situation.

Sure. Divide it. Obviously it's evident that impurities exist, and therefore there is purity in their absence.

Good point. Many areas of helping people requires very particular skills and specialised understandings...

I can definitely understand you there... hurting someone leaves you a bit ginger in interactions with others. I would add, though, that pains caused to you and me (as opposed to that we cause to others) by interacting with others are often learning experiences and chances (albeit occasionally extremely painful chances) to mature on the path.

Anyways, I think we are coming from the same place on a lot of these things. Good to talk with you again!

-TaoSandwich

My pleasure entirely

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I realized I wrote the below to just give another perspective of meditation
from an avid meditater of decades...any form of meditation I support...

If there is no intention or desire in, during, around meditation, as mentioned..
and dare I say, expectation...
then why would someone even want to meditate?
Ha...it would sound pretty dry and blah, and stagnant to me!

Exactly. 'Why' is a pertinent question.

Even as I approach my meditation area I feel joy.
I am filled with intent and expectation...similar to when I plant a flower seed...if I didn't have desire, I think
I would be dead!

I know what is about to happen! At some point, my Divine Father,
the Holiest of Presences is going to appear!
Fill my inner vision completely...and 'out of nowhere', ha...so funny could happen at anytime ...
like a guest knocking at your door...could be the 2nd hour, the third or the fifth...it is when 'He' pleases...taking my breath away.

And "He'' is going to do what He always does....take me...fill my heart with
telepathic complete sentences of such intimacy of His Love...
Telling me deep things and revealing profound reasons for existence...
telling me of His heart's desire for Man...

He may take me to places I read NDErs go...Star systems, swirling
'quasars', fireworks of color, kaleidoscope patterns...and
sometimes 'through'...thru to a different place...crystal clear,
crisp, more real than what I see with my eyes open...the 'Other Side"?

I have intention alright...and my heart waits, becomes still, remains empty like a cup to be filled...all while
it is sitting on the edge of it's seat expecting the Infinite Source of All That Is to visit me.

Needless to say, I am spiritual. LOL.

So ... another approach to meditation.

Ok, an empty cup seems to rule out expectations and become a vessel within which anything that arises may be contained. I would never specify what might arise because I can't possibly know that, I can be confident that something will occur, though.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Me, either!!
Wow, I have to find a place to write what my friend just told me!!
First time she has had God talk to her in complete sentences, also...
some deep stuff!
Universal truths always...not just some personal stuff
... I have found.

Please refrain from saying it within this thread. My reason is, the assertion that 'God said it' sets up an authority which coerces people into believing it. Any other thread would be more appropriate, but it directly contradicts the purpose of this thread.

This thread is where people can be strengthened, reinforced encouraged and supported with consideration and kindness so as to rise as themselves, and explore together and make discoveries.

May each person remain completely present with their own experience of life, so that they know things truly and deeply, and let real happiness rise up within us all, and may your friend be truely happy, Miss Hepburn.

Hi Folks
I have been meditating nigh on every day for 30-45 minutes for several years now. Why? I use the meditation in quite a "busy" way, I guess....the following is a quick list of the things I get done.
Ask for meditation help from the creator, re-new psychic protective structures, open chakras, send/ask for forgiveness in all lives, ask for help to be wholly myself and remove blockages to spirit, pay homage to about 25 significant etheric beings and my own energy bodies, bring in healing and peace to the earth, connect with my spiritual teacher, ask for healing support from 5 etheric beings, send healing to about 30 friends/family.
That's it. I have worked hard to achieve a general level of inner peace and part of my life's purpose is to serve the spiritual hierarchy. These things influence the nature of my meditation.
Much love to all