Free Will Is An Illusion

[Damian]

Free will is an illusion. Here's why. Either determinism is true or it is not. If it is true, then every choice we make could not have been otherwise. If it is not true, then indeterminism is true by default and the only reason why we could have chosen otherwise must ultimately be attributed to pure chance or randomness.

It might sound somewhat paradoxical. But realizing this truth is liberating.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by Damian

Free will is an illusion. Here's why. Either determinism is true or it is not. If it is true, then every choice we make could not have been otherwise. If it is not true, then indeterminism is true by default and the only reason why we could have chosen otherwise must ultimately be attributed to pure chance or randomness.

It might sound somewhat paradoxical. But realizing this truth is liberating.

Nonsense.
1. If determinism doesn't apply then it being 'false' says nothing about the alternatives.
2. Being the not fully deterministic does not automatically imply the polar opposite is true (pure chance or randomness). It could be partly controllable. for instance.
3. You are applying logic and reason to try to define what must be like somehow that makes reality comply. You haven't shown that reality obeys logic and reason.
4. If the happenings of material reality are just the musings of consciousness, it could be freely chosen to play out deterministically AND yet still be freely changed.

if god did create us but didn't give us free will........what's the point? did he/she/it just want a bunch of obeying little zombies? that's an arrogant and controlling god.

it only makes sense that we do have free will so we can make choices and based on those choices, learn this earth walk's lessons.

Here's another thought.
Time is now thought of as not linear. We perceive it as so but it just 'is'.
If time is already there then what will happen in future has already happened. If that is the case then do we have free will?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Damian

Free will is an illusion. Here's why. Either determinism is true or it is not. If it is true, then every choice we make could not have been otherwise. If it is not true, then indeterminism is true by default and the only reason why we could have chosen otherwise must ultimately be attributed to pure chance or randomness.

It might sound somewhat paradoxical. But realizing this truth is liberating.

If you consider the butterfly effect, a very small change in initial conditions produces vastly different (or various) outcomes, which are determined, but unpredictable.

In so saying, a decision isn't a determiner of particular outcomes, it determines a plethora of possibilities...

as i said on another thread, 'if you don't believe in free will, you haven't watched a 2 year old.' :)

[Dwerg]

I see it more like this. I'm determined by what has happened up until now, but by will I determine my future. Determined by free will, that's a paradox. Any choice could not have been any other way than it was, it would be denial to see it like that. You decide how that influences the choices you do now for a better future that is largely uncertain. The best we can do is to improve upon our ability to predict outcomes and possibilities based on our past, cause and effect.

People believe either one or the other, but both are indeed true and false. It's the consequence of being intensely in the now and using my entire past to create my future. I don't believe in philosophical paradoxes, paradoxes are illusions cause it ain't that simple as either one or the other.

I would be happy to listen if you could devise of a practical (and not hypothetical) way to demonstrate that free will is any more or less illusory than determinism or any other empty belief positions for that matter.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by Ecthalion

Here's another thought.
Time is now thought of as not linear. We perceive it as so but it just 'is'.
If time is already there then what will happen in future has already happened. If that is the case then do we have free will?

This has no impact on free will. It only implies that you have already exercised free will. Though it would seem to indicate that you can no longer impact what is, that is not the case. The current complete state of 'is' is a reflection of the free will you have applied. If indeed there is free will, one can apply more free will as desired. The current state of all reality will reflect this addition, and more additions should you apply them.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by Dwerg

I see it more like this. I'm determined by what has happened up until now, but by will I determine my future.

FYI, Experiments on quantum mechanics have shown that the past can be changed. Perhaps your past is not determined either ...

[Dwerg]

Originally Posted by wstein

FYI, Experiments on quantum mechanics have shown that the past can be changed. Perhaps your past is not determined either ...

I really dislike when people have to resort to quantum mechanics to confirm their views without showing to anything.