Outdated?

[Ghost_Rider_1970]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It's been said that every religion was right for that culture at that time, if that's true then what does that tell us about today's culture? That it doesn't need religion? Very often religion has had a specific role to play within a culture and today that role is eroding fast.

By the way, often people are just people and nobody is above anything, people who believe in Spirituality can be just as arrogant as those that don't. "God made man, man made religion." God didn't make religion nor Spirituality and the mindsets that created religion and Spirituality really haven't changed much.

France spent many years in the grip of the Roman Catholic church and heretics were burned at the stake, often with little or no trial. It's hardly any wonder that Macron encouraged his people to be atheists after so many bloody years. It would be nice to have a debate about the benefits - and there are quite a few - to being atheist but it's a taboo subject on these boards, even in today's tolerant times.

The majority of the wars in history and currently have been caused by religion, so to the general populace religion can be seen as another reason to create conflict.

Science doesn't contradict religion - it's the other way around. Throughout history many of the world's leading scientists have been religious or Spiritual, but how many religious/Spiritual leaders have been scientific? Often Spirituality adopts words or phrases from other fields with no real understanding of what it means, then changes the definitions to suit personal agendas.

If Jung's definitions of the word 'ego' or 'Shadow Self' or Freud's definitions of the 'id', the 'ego' and the 'superego' were better understood better then not only would this particular topic be better understood, so would the frameworks on which Spirituality is built. Come to think of it, if people used 'kamma-vipaka' instead of 'karma' there would be more understanding and self-awareness.

According to the Hindu Samadhi, religion, Spirituality and beliefs are a 'product' of Maya or the false or conditioned self. Tolle also says that beliefs and Spiritual knowledge are space consciousness, a lower-level form-based consciousness. What's to be done with that information?

Your perceptions are defined by your definitions in short, and when you define what is Spiritual you also define what is not Spiritual. Your personal perceptions that Spirituality is outdated are your comparisons against your definitions. But Spirituality will tell you that everything is an expression of Source.

Brilliant, brilliant post! One of the very best I’ve read here on the forum! Thank you so, so much Greenslade for taking the time to write this

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

So where does Spiritual development sit in "the eternal present?" Tolle says that the Now is all there is, the past is memory and the future is expectation so is Spiritual development a contradiction to Spiritual Truth (because after all it comes from Eckhart Tolle) or is it ironic because you have to be Spiritually developed enough to Live in the Now? If there is no time and all of time affects all of time all of the time then... what? I never did like causality loops much. But this is another reason why Joe Public doesn't like Spirituality - frankly it's a contradictory mess sometimes and beliefs are only truths when they're in glass cases.

I walked away from Christianity because in my town the people that went to church on Sunday were hypocrites - they were the people that looked down on me the rest of the week. And I never felt that God was in the House of God, it always felt cold and empty. To me, religions represent mindsets and Spirituality is often no different.

Regardless of what religion was 'created' for, there's something very different happening today. Against all true Islamic tenets there are those that are trying to impose Sharia Law in the UK, and there are already no-go zones in large cities where ordinary people have barricaded themselves in. Yet they still take money from the government to buy food and clothes, pay their rent etc... This is the face of religion that most people see - not what goes on behind closed doors. What's been in the news is that the Saudis have decided that stoning people for homosexuality is the law. Religion has become just another excuse to cause conflict and murder - and even genocide - to many. I can't believe in a religion that does that, yet I'll happily sit and watch a YouTube of a woman who is telling of how the holy books had been re-written to suit the clerics of their religion, and how the doctrine is contradictory to historical facts. You can't blame people for not wanting to be associated with that, just the same way Spiritual people don't want to be associated with junkies.

The ones that want to find what they need badly enough will find it regardless, after their own fashion. Most people want an inner peace more than anything else, especially in this day and age and this is where religion and people can part company. Religion is often seen as being for those that want the rituals and the ideologies, and that has little place in modern society. You see, the wrong questions are being asked yet again and people are coming up with answers that don't make sense because of it. Maybe when people stop creating wars in the name of religion others might find their way to exploring something resembling a religious ideal.

There are some things that are just not meant to be institutionalised and people are asking different questions and looking for different answers.

The same thing is happening here in Australia...there are many, many areas already under Sharia Law and yet the occupants are all too willing to take government handouts whilst barricading themselves inside and drawing up plans for succession from the Commonwealth under Sharia Law...it's because we listened to all those "bleeding heart" humanitarians when we should have shot them all...along with all of the illegal refugees. Some humans do not deserve human rights because they only rub it in the face of others...I am full of seething, intolerant hatred for them all...and my racism is fully justified under our (fastly dwindling) constitution.

One good thing...I will be dead in 10-20 years, so I won't get to see the full extent of Islamic global domination...it can be "somebody else's problem" as I breathe my last and kiss this miserable world a good riddance because I hate living on this planet and my soul contract is "if I am to be reborn, I will die by my own hand over and over until the universe gets the effing message that I just don't want to be here...karma or no karma".

...and I cannot put it any more succinctly than that.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Here's what made sense of it all for me -

"The temple of the most high begins with the body which houses our life, the essence of our existence. Africans are in bondage today because they approach spirituality through religion provided by foreign invaders and conquerors. We must stop confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a set of rules, regulations and rituals created by humans, which was suppose to help people grow spiritually. Due to human imperfection religion has become corrupt, political, divisive and a tool for power struggle. Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simply a way of life, pure and original as was given by the Most High of Creation. Spirituality is a network linking us to the Most High, the universe, and each other…”

Hailie Selassie


So while Selassie was talking about African religion/Spirituality it's just as applicable everywhere else. If you read through the forum posts many of them are ideology/theology based - and that's not a criticism but an observation. The problem as I see it is that people look out from their own perspective, which is where their feet are, and if their feet is standing on ideologies and theologies? Most 'go to church on Sundays' religions are on the wain because people's lifestyles don't allow for the same ritualistic practices of something that doesn't bring them much benefit - as they see it.

The other problem is that Spirituality is changing but Spiritual people aren't changing along with it because they're too focussed on their religions. Moire people are interested in the mind/body/spirit aspects of their Lives but as it fits in with their lifestyles. They'll buy a mice plate with glass beads and a couple of candles because it makes them feel better. Interestingly, people religiously practice their Spirituality for the same reasons. These 'back to nature' holidays and trips are becoming more prevalent, or just spending quiet time under a tree. That to them is quite Spiritual.

It's Spiritual people that are out-dated because they can't tell the differences between Spirituality and religion.

Hi Greenslade,

You bring up some good points. People in general tend to stick with what is familiar to them. Many seem uncomfortable with change, in my opion.

What formed religion? What is foundation of it? Many take a set of beliefs and teachings of some kind that have been passed down. Some religions are off shoots of other practices and prior religion.

Christianity in some ways is a mut religion. Meaning the Old Testament teachings/preachings are based in Judism. The rituals of burning candles and incense are from some pagen rituals. Christian holidays just so happen to fall on or near what was once pagen celebrations. This has also been some of the problems with some religions.

Then you have all the different sects and branches that have formed with in the general religious practice. It seems to the point that the original beliefs and teachings have been so "watered down" that it is unknown or known by very few as to what they even were.

Is it any wonder that conflicts occur?

The point I was making though is that at its base religion is spiritual teaching. It just when it gets institionalized and the followers along with it then it seems divisions occur. It becomes about preserving the institution and the way that it is dictated over faith and connection with God/divine. As I see it.

Spirituality when formed into a thing also seems to fall into the same traps.
True self-Holy Spirit
Source-God-Creater
Ego-Devil-Pride


Spirituality seems a very broad term. Is it any wonder so much confusion on how "we" should be or even possibly can be is out there?

Yes, much is ones own perspective. Some is also ones own perception. What is sensed and felt.
At times just go along with "I don't know". Which in a way makes all this a little neutral.

The interesting part is that through many practices of old are becoming mainstream and some are shown to beneficial in general.
Such as mindfulness and meditation/just a quiet time. Some public schools in this country are having kids do this in the morning. Some kids find it relaxes them and are better focused.

Some of the traditional ways will remain in some form or another. Others will be formed into something else. While others will be lost to the wind.

Wonder how much have we lost? What has been preserved, how much of this actually is of service?

Guess in many ways it is a personal thing.

[Rawnrr]

Science and religion are both looking for the same thing...an understanding of life.
Early religion was the science of the day. Looking for explanations of the world around them. But then as with all human activities, ego came in and then the science (the search) stopped and the dogma settled in. "This is right because we say so and this must not be questioned"
But science did continue and we moved ahead with our understanding and creating the illusion that religion and science are two different paths. This was done so both could live together.
But even alot of science has taken on the ego block as well. "This is what we have believed for so many years, how dare you try to introduce a new theory"..and that will cause the same stagnation.
But the science will still go on, and the fringe sciences will eventually push beyond the the ego boarders of the previous generations.......and this cycle will continue.......that is how we grow as humans

Originally Posted by Ghost_Rider_1970

Brilliant, brilliant post! One of the very best I’ve read here on the forum! Thank you so, so much Greenslade for taking the time to write this

Thank you. Please sign up for the newsletter and be sure to buy a fan T-shirt.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

The same thing is happening here in Australia...there are many, many areas already under Sharia Law and yet the occupants are all too willing to take government handouts whilst barricading themselves inside and drawing up plans for succession from the Commonwealth under Sharia Law...it's because we listened to all those "bleeding heart" humanitarians when we should have shot them all...along with all of the illegal refugees. Some humans do not deserve human rights because they only rub it in the face of others...I am full of seething, intolerant hatred for them all...and my racism is fully justified under our (fastly dwindling) constitution.

One good thing...I will be dead in 10-20 years, so I won't get to see the full extent of Islamic global domination...it can be "somebody else's problem" as I breathe my last and kiss this miserable world a good riddance because I hate living on this planet and my soul contract is "if I am to be reborn, I will die by my own hand over and over until the universe gets the effing message that I just don't want to be here...karma or no karma".

...and I cannot put it any more succinctly than that.

In many ways I agree with you but the situation isn't going to change any time soon, and there will still be those living in fear because of people who want to push their values onto others - and worse. And for those that are tut-tutting because it's a Spiritual forum, I can;t help but wonder if their thoughts would change if they felt so afraid they had to barricade themselves into their homes because of the riots at their front doors.


Unfortunately reality doesn't conform to anyone's ideology.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Greenslade,

You bring up some good points. People in general tend to stick with what is familiar to them. Many seem uncomfortable with change, in my opion.

What formed religion? What is foundation of it? Many take a set of beliefs and teachings of some kind that have been passed down. Some religions are off shoots of other practices and prior religion.

Christianity in some ways is a mut religion. Meaning the Old Testament teachings/preachings are based in Judism. The rituals of burning candles and incense are from some pagen rituals. Christian holidays just so happen to fall on or near what was once pagen celebrations. This has also been some of the problems with some religions.

Then you have all the different sects and branches that have formed with in the general religious practice. It seems to the point that the original beliefs and teachings have been so "watered down" that it is unknown or known by very few as to what they even were.

Is it any wonder that conflicts occur?

The point I was making though is that at its base religion is spiritual teaching. It just when it gets institionalized and the followers along with it then it seems divisions occur. It becomes about preserving the institution and the way that it is dictated over faith and connection with God/divine. As I see it.

Spirituality when formed into a thing also seems to fall into the same traps.
True self-Holy Spirit
Source-God-Creater
Ego-Devil-Pride


Spirituality seems a very broad term. Is it any wonder so much confusion on how "we" should be or even possibly can be is out there?

Yes, much is ones own perspective. Some is also ones own perception. What is sensed and felt.
At times just go along with "I don't know". Which in a way makes all this a little neutral.

The interesting part is that through many practices of old are becoming mainstream and some are shown to beneficial in general.
Such as mindfulness and meditation/just a quiet time. Some public schools in this country are having kids do this in the morning. Some kids find it relaxes them and are better focused.

Some of the traditional ways will remain in some form or another. Others will be formed into something else. While others will be lost to the wind.

Wonder how much have we lost? What has been preserved, how much of this actually is of service?

Guess in many ways it is a personal thing.

Hi there Moonglow


If you trace Christianity back far enough you'll find a very different picture, its roots actually go back as far as Sumerian mythology but nobody wants to hear that part. But it's never about the religion but the people who believe in it.



People formed religion. It perhaps began in our sense of wonder about the world around us, The questions of where we came from and how did everything we see come into being. Everything else is just as much good old human nature and so followers and leaders came to be. And the rest, as they say, is history. Religion was supposed to help us find our Spirituality and for many people it did, but then there came a time when that was institutionalised and the complexities of human interaction came to the fore. It was that which was predominant and it remains so today.


We have lost our Spirituality in many ways, Moonglow, which was what Haile Selassie was pointing out. Religion hss another control mechanism, an alternative to the control of politics. It's another reason for separation as one person is Spiritual and another not, that you believe this and I don't. That we are human and not some Spiritual ideal.


Buddha didn't go to University and Lao Tzu didn't have a Spiritual forum.

[Anala]

This reminds me of a poem by Shel Silverstein, “Listen to the Mustn’t’s”.

Just my perspective; there is a dichotomy occurring between those who draw battle lines with a death grip on beliefs, religious or spiritual, and those who see no lines at all.

My elder and I spoke of this the other day. During guided meditation, I use a simple inexpensive phone app. I had a spontaneous kundalini experience. So I googled a description of my experience. I was horrified at all the warnings and taboos and judgements and on and on. Very unsettling.

I was reticent to discuss it with her, but she is very learned. It all comes back to, “I already know what I need to know; I am just remembering it.” It just is. The internet, while a few of the facts were there, many explanations were full of “PCE”, the big three, power, control and ego. My discussion with my elder was short and simple. She shared her experience and I told her mine. Do I need this new label? No. Will I use it for common nomenclature, yes! Will I tick this new experience off my list and move myself across some experience continuum, no. It is not mine to claim, it is just there. Like all of the other experiences. There for when I need them. Like my elder told me everyone has these abilities.

I see the world around me as doing the same. Looking for simple truths in a fast paced complicated world. While some wants to label and dictate and have power and control over the narrative. But control is an illusion and power is all ego. The world is changing. The dynamic is shifting. Paradigm are being broken down.

And I hold a space in my heart for everyone, because that is just my way.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Moonglow


If you trace Christianity back far enough you'll find a very different picture, its roots actually go back as far as Sumerian mythology but nobody wants to hear that part. But it's never about the religion but the people who believe in it.



People formed religion. It perhaps began in our sense of wonder about the world around us, The questions of where we came from and how did everything we see come into being. Everything else is just as much good old human nature and so followers and leaders came to be. And the rest, as they say, is history. Religion was supposed to help us find our Spirituality and for many people it did, but then there came a time when that was institutionalised and the complexities of human interaction came to the fore. It was that which was predominant and it remains so today.


We have lost our Spirituality in many ways, Moonglow, which was what Haile Selassie was pointing out. Religion hss another control mechanism, an alternative to the control of politics. It's another reason for separation as one person is Spiritual and another not, that you believe this and I don't. That we are human and not some Spiritual ideal.


Buddha didn't go to University and Lao Tzu didn't have a Spiritual forum.

Hey Greenslade,

What pops into my mind is; is Spirituality in its essence a thing?
Meaning there is talk and discussions about consciousness, Spirit, other realms/planes of existence, but what manifests/forms or gives forms to these, is it a thing.

For at its base isn't this what spirituality strives to bring to ones attention to?
To look and see beyond ones own ideas, theologies, theories, and such of it all.
To become aware of what is. Which includes some of the bits that seem not so lovey dovey and comfortable.

What is Spirit in relationship to us humans? The key in some ways is in relationship with/to humans. Which plays it part in all this, doesn't it?

The thing is along with the mind set of some of what spiritual or not, comes devaluations of being human. Not accepting in some ways that all this is being experienced and looked at through this human form at present.

When realized that we are not just a bag of bones and flesh, but spirit/energy as well, this for me brings it more together then apart. We are with and of spirit as well in this human form. May in words come across idealistic, because through words up for interpretation. In living life it is felt and just known deep with in

Experiencing someone dying may have brought such wonder and awareness into our consciousness. Feeling that energy leave the body or no longer there. Creating stories to give us comfort and hope.

Powerful stuff when living is hard and one is just trying to survive. To have trust that nature or what may be is protecting and providing for us. Hope can be very strong emotion and sometimes all that keep one from falling apart.

Maybe in some ways in these modern times some have simply lost hope and have become too intellectual as to not dream a little. God or the idea of it, in some respect disappoints ones expectations. But then again one may only be looking at what one expects. When the unexpected happens it gets written off or only getting in the way.

At times, most times, it is the unexpected that make the most changes.
Which brings the thoughts back to Spirituality. It may not always play by what one expects. It changes and flow in directions that expands consciousness, but it is up to each individual to notice or not.

It also involves applying what is brought to ones attention to ones life, which takes effort. More then just reciting prayers and going to church once a week or day.

Mayby some don't want to accept this part. Want a quick fix and a guaranteed ticket to the grand stage. Find life just doesn't work this way. Takes time and effort. To gain wisdom and become aware of what is to be aware of with in and with out. To create change and adapt to the changes as best one is able to.

It is a mix bag of goods. For that is what humans are and living life brings.

Seeing Spirtually or not does not change what life.is being. Just different ways created to deal with it, I suppose.

[Taking a Break]

Originally Posted by NoOne

Sorry, but i have to interject here on account of the whole "Islamic Domination" theme. I personally thing it's horse****e. Muslims can't even dominate (or run) their own countries, let alone somebody else's. It is a failed civilisation that survives on the kindness of strangers who keep it afloat for their own reasons and take in the many who are fleeing its collapse.

They aren't invading anyone, in fact the entire Islamic region is essentially falling in on itself, like a rotting, leaking roof in a condemned house. The fact that people are fleeing it and seeking better lives in non-Islamic countries is a sign of weakness, not strength. There is also no Sharia law being introduced in Western Countries, except for a few exceptions in minor, civil matters, but it's not like there's beheadings for adultery on the main Square of Toronto every Friday.

The far-right Hysteria surrounding this matter is astonishing and was the main reason for the Christchurch massacre, which is why we should get real and stop panicking about nothing. This isn't a criticism of anyone here, I am referring to a global phenomenon that has gone too far and is inflamed by right-wing media, not least by one Rupert Murdoch and his sensationalist, low-brow publications. Can we put him aboard a wooden sailing ship and send him back to Botany Bay please? His noxious emissions are poisoning public discourse all over the Western World.

Russell Peters used to say "somebody gonna get hurt real bad."