Practice everything

[Gem]

Most of the threads here are overrun by high spiritual things which I don't relate to - and I wish this section was more accessible to people in general. TBH, I've been working on it for a few years, and whatever effect that has had, I don't think the place is as wild as it used to be, and it's closer to what Buddhism is like.

It's only proper that one enters the thread with the refuge in mind, though that is only a cultural formality. The refuge is threefold: 1) refuge in dhamma (surrender to the truth of nature's law) 2) Refuge in the Buddha (surrender to the enlightenment in yourself) and ; refuge in the sangha (we are the sangha as far as this thread is concerned).

Refuge in the sangha basically means that we have a responsibility to be ethical in the sense we are trustworthy and people are safe with us. To be clear, I don't take refuge in this sangha because I have my doubts that it's safe; but I try to be trustworthy, though I know I'm not perfect. So refuge in dhamma and buddha is enough for now, and maybe later if this lot seem to sincerely wish only for your best happiness, then give a little trust and see how it works out. This leads us to the ethics, because only through being moral can one be trusted, and the primary key is, don't want anything from anyone, because the generosity is to give expecting nothing in return out of the metta-wish that all beings be happy.

I have to talk about the important things more than the fascinating things. It's very important because this whole thing is built on morality, and as one of the sangha, worthiness of refuge is the primary responsibility and the ultimate goal. The Buddhists start with that foundation, so when you visit the thread, understand your place and do your best, without being perfect, to uphold it. Without that foundation, what good is it to discuss anything else Buddhist related?

[sky]

Here's an excellent explanation by a very respected Buddhists Teacher....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...ro/refuge.html

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Here's an excellent explanation by a very respected Buddhists Teacher....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...ro/refuge.html

Good stuff.

The Buddha, on the external level, refers to Siddhattha Gotama, the Indian prince who renounced his royal titles and went into the forest, meditating until he ultimately gained Awakening. To take refuge in the Buddha means, not taking refuge in him as a person, but taking refuge in the fact of his Awakening: placing trust in the belief that he did awaken to the truth, that he did so by developing qualities that we too can develop, and that the truths to which he awoke provide the best perspective for the conduct of our life.

The Dhamma, on the external level, refers to the path of practice the Buddha taught to this followers. This, in turn, is divided into three levels: the words of his teachings, the act of putting those teachings into practice, and the attainment of Awakening as the result of that practice. This three-way division of the word "Dhamma" acts as a map showing how to take the external refuges and make them internal: learning about the teachings, using them to develop the qualities that the Buddha himself used to attain Awakening, and then realizing the same release from danger that he found in the quality of Deathlessness that we can touch within.

The word Sangha, on the external level, has two senses: conventional and ideal. In its ideal sense, the Sangha consists of all people, lay or ordained, who have practiced the Dhamma to the point of gaining at least a glimpse of the Deathless. In a conventional sense, Sangha denotes the communities of ordained monks and nuns. The two meanings overlap but are not necessarily identical. Some members of the ideal Sangha are not ordained; some monks and nuns have yet to touch the Deathless. All those who take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha become members of the Buddha's four-fold assembly (parisa) of followers: monks, nuns, male lay devotees, and female lay devotees. Although there's a widespread belief that all Buddhist followers are members of the Sangha, this is not the case. Only those who are ordained are members of the conventional Sangha; only those who have glimpsed the Deathless are members of the ideal Sangha. Nevertheless, any followers who don't belong to the Sangha in either sense of the word still count as genuine Buddhists in that they are members of the Buddha's parisa.

It's important that we have a correct understanding of the Triple Gems before we begin.

It's only proper that one enters the thread with the refuge in mind, though that is only a cultural formality. The refuge is threefold: 1) refuge in dhamma (surrender to the truth of nature's law) 2) Refuge in the Buddha (surrender to the enlightenment in yourself) and ; refuge in the sangha (we are the sangha as far as this thread is concerned).

It also seems that you are dismissing the teachings and beliefs of Buddhism with these comments.

The Triple Gems are not cultural formalities.

Dhamma is more than natures law.. what does that mean? Evolution?
Refuge in the Buddha is not just surrender to the enlightenment in yourself.
Sanga, this is not a proper Sangha .. but you work with what you got.. we are all trying to learn.

If you want a thread that talks about Buddhism, let's talk about Buddhism. Not just what one wants to accept or believe in..

Honest question. With your above definition where does any Buddhist beliefs or practices fit in?

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Good stuff.







It's important that we have a correct understanding of the Triple Gems before we begin.



It also seems that you are dismissing the teachings and beliefs of Buddhism with these comments.

The Triple Gems are not cultural formalities.

Dhamma is more than natures law.. what does that mean? Evolution?
Refuge in the Buddha is not just surrender to the enlightenment in yourself.
Sanga, this is not a proper Sangha .. but you work with what you got.. we are all trying to learn.

If you want a thread that talks about Buddhism, let's talk about Buddhism. Not just what one wants to accept or believe in..

Honest question. With your above definition where does any Buddhist beliefs or practices fit in?

' It's important that we have a correct understanding of the Triple Gems before we begin.'



Exactly, that's the reason I Posted it. Starting on the right foot is the only way....

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

Most of the threads here are overrun by high spiritual things which I don't relate to - and I wish this section was more accessible to people in general. TBH, I've been working on it for a few years, and whatever effect that has had, I don't think the place is as wild as it used to be, and it's closer to what Buddhism is like.

It's only proper that one enters the thread with the refuge in mind, though that is only a cultural formality. The refuge is threefold: 1) refuge in dhamma (surrender to the truth of nature's law) 2) Refuge in the Buddha (surrender to the enlightenment in yourself) and ; refuge in the sangha (we are the sangha as far as this thread is concerned).

Refuge in the sangha basically means that we have a responsibility to be ethical in the sense we are trustworthy and people are safe with us. To be clear, I don't take refuge in this sangha because I have my doubts that it's safe; but I try to be trustworthy, though I know I'm not perfect. So refuge in dhamma and buddha is enough for now, and maybe later if this lot seem to sincerely wish only for your best happiness, then give a little trust and see how it works out. This leads us to the ethics, because only through being moral can one be trusted, and the primary key is, don't want anything from anyone, because the generosity is to give expecting nothing in return out of the metta-wish that all beings be happy.

I have to talk about the important things more than the fascinating things. It's very important because this whole thing is built on morality, and as one of the sangha, worthiness of refuge is the primary responsibility and the ultimate goal. The Buddhists start with that foundation, so when you visit the thread, understand your place and do your best, without being perfect, to uphold it. Without that foundation, what good is it to discuss anything else Buddhist related?

'refuge in dhamma (surrender to the truth of nature's law '

It's actually refuge in the Dhamma ( Buddha's Teachings)

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

'refuge in dhamma (surrender to the truth of nature's law '

It's actually refuge in the Dhamma ( Buddha's Teachings)

Or it's refuge in where those teachings lead as is mentioned in the link you posted. One only needs to take a class if they don't have the information offered by it. But yes the point of every class is to learn something one does not know. One does not take a class forever. You get the knowledge then have no more use for the class on it. The teachings are then in you, as knowledge or understanding or as lived, actualized.

From the Buddhist teacher's post you linked to:

"When we develop wisdom, purity, and compassion in our own minds, they form our refuge"

"conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment. When we develop these same qualities to the point of attaining Awakening too, that Awakening is our ultimate refuge. This is the point where the three aspects of the Triple Gem become one: beyond the reach of greed, anger, and delusion, and thus totally secure."

the three aspects of the Triple Gem become one... life as lived when awake!

Another quote from that Buddhist teacher:

"Dhamma" acts as a map showing how to take the external refuges and make them internal: learning about the teachings, using them to develop the qualities that the Buddha himself used to attain Awakening, and then realizing the same"

[Phaelyn]

Once the external refuges become internal, they have no spiritual purpose for us, though they still clearly have a purpose for others, an important one, so one can still externally support and be associated with them if one has a desire to. It's like a gardener that loves the organic seeds from a little store in his town and he has bought every one and grows all of them on his farm, so now that he makes his own seeds and has no more use for that store, he can still love that store for what it has allowed him to create.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Or it's refuge in where those teachings lead as is mentioned in the link you posted. One only needs to take a class if they don't have the information offered by it. But yes the point of every class is to learn something one does not know. One does not take a class forever. You get the knowledge then have no more use for the class on it. The teachings are then in you, as knowledge or understanding or as lived, actualized.

From the Buddhist teacher's post you linked to:

"When we develop wisdom, purity, and compassion in our own minds, they form our refuge"

"conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment. When we develop these same qualities to the point of attaining Awakening too, that Awakening is our ultimate refuge. This is the point where the three aspects of the Triple Gem become one: beyond the reach of greed, anger, and delusion, and thus totally secure."

the three aspects of the Triple Gem become one... life as lived when awake!

Another quote from that Buddhist teacher:

"Dhamma" acts as a map showing how to take the external refuges and make them internal: learning about the teachings, using them to develop the qualities that the Buddha himself used to attain Awakening, and then realizing the same"

When I go to a Sangha I don't look at it as ' taking a class ' but being part of a Community...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

It's important that we have a correct understanding of the Triple Gems before we begin


It also seems that you are dismissing the teachings and beliefs of Buddhism with these comments.

The Triple Gems are not cultural formalities.


Dhamma is more than natures law.. what does that mean? Evolution?

Refuge in the Buddha is not just surrender to the enlightenment in yourself.
Sanga, this is not a proper Sangha .. but you work with what you got.. we are all trying to learn

If you want a thread that talks about Buddhism, let's talk about Buddhism. Not just what one wants to accept or believe in..

Honest question. With your above definition where does any Buddhist beliefs or practices fit in?

If you look at what I said you'll notice I talked about practice primarily and only mentioned technicalities as an aside.

First I gave a universal meaning of refuge so that any person might accept they are subject to the laws of the universe and should therefore surrender to the ways of nature. For example, accept consequences for actions. Actions imply intent and intent is the cornerstone of morality, where malice is ill-will and loving-kindness is good-will. Presuming this is universal law, we understand how important it is to foster good will and disband malice, deceit etc. in order to be trustworthy, which in turn, makes the sangha worthy of refuge.

That's how what I initially said is literally jam packed with practice.

[Gem]

Hello again


Having some vague idea of 'refuge' and how morality ties in to it, one can consider what makes a safe community and what role an individual plays in that.

Naturally that relates to practice, and I'm sure most of us see that implication.


The subject, however, is subjective, so it is understood within the actuality of the senses even though these constitute no objective substance. For example, trust, as I mentioned, is entirely subjective, and having no substance nor extension in space, can only be understood in the immediate experience of it.


The fact that something of this nature is subjective does not mean it is invented or imaginatively fabricated. It is a real thing despite it having no objective qualities, and it can be fostered and nurtured through honesty and such wholesome conduct. It can also be misplaced. It can be enticed deceptively and then shattered when the truth is revealed. You could be betrayed, mislead, taken advantage of, used - and that destroys everything.


As such we are wary of intent. There is a risk involved and through our evolution for survival we have become sensitive to what those around us intend, their motive, and we needn't pretend that our own intentions are entirely private. People do pick up on them, and even though they are sometimes misread, generally speaking, people have a pretty good idea of what's going on around them.


IOW, we tend to know what compels each other, and unless we go into the infinite regress of intending to intend to intend... no one of us chooses our intentions. If this is the case, one might question wherefrom intent arises, and if not predetermined by us, what is its origin?


This will be very difficult to explain, you see. It is not 'in the world' to be examined and articulated. It is 'within you' and one need be self-aware to know in the most intimate, immediate and subjective sense what is actually going on with themselves. You can be pretty sure that others get a sense of it. We are all alert to others and how they affect us even though we overlook ourselves due to our outward focus on the environment in which we exist.


You can only test my points, not by finding out if the the Canon refutes or validates them, but only by discerning for yourself, without any external affirmation whatsoever, entirely on your own, how this applies to you as an individual, and if that's what you were doing so far, then you know this aspect of 'practice', and as a result, the motive for conduct would be influenced in a way you consider to be positive, not by force of will as if we intend to intend to intend to intend... etc., but by the sense of it we can glean through self-knowing.


Before you refute and cut and paste, please understand that I'm very interested in elaboration on any point I made, but I'm not going to be defending any arguments.