The elephant in the room.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Debrah

And further reading too about the effects of the animal agriculture industry on the environment has me convinced that one of the major changes we need to make if we hope to have a world for our great grandchildren to live in, is that we have to all quit eating the animals. They can't take it! Ecosystems are disappearing because of the meat consumption around the globe, populations of whole species are disappearing because people 'just gotta eat them or grind them up and snort them, or hang their heads on walls, or cause they just like killing stuff'.

Yes.. just read recently that we already killed 60% of all wild animals since the 1970s, much of course to do with deforestation due to agriculture, especially soybeans (95+%) fed to cows, pigs, and chickens. I see people on this forum sharing their animal encounters and talk about their favourite animals and their totem animals but it seems a lot here seem disinterested in what's going on out there. This separation of a spiritual life with actual life on earth is very troubling and not helpful, and since a lot of people here believe in karma it is also good to point out that ignoring or supporting this onslaught might not be the best thing to do..

As for hunting.. in most cases it's needless and prevents actual ecological restoration with healthy populations of predators such as wolves. The hunting lobbies rarely have the best interests in mind for the entire ecosystem concerned. That's why they're nearly always anti-wolf because the wolf, being an actual animal that needs to hunt, endangers their lifestyle..

Originally Posted by Baile

That's the world we live in: people posting on a spiritual site, claiming it's a "spiritual philosophy" to gleefully kill animals... as in "Deer Hunting Season!!!!" Yah-HOO Ka-BLOOM. Ommmmm.... It's the same on the TF forum: people justifying cheating on their spouse and having an affair with their supposed TF... you know, because it's a "spiritual" relationship. Sometimes I wish I was religious; I could take solace in knowing Jesus will be returning soon to deal with this ridiculous nonsense.

Well you can always believe in the 2012esque Era of Enlightenment and claim everything's going to be fine... or at least eventually..!

Baile.. pick your belief!

Originally Posted by Altair

...Well you can always believe in the 2012esque Era of Enlightenment and claim everything's going to be fine... or at least eventually..!

Baile.. pick your belief!

I'm the one who brought up 2012 - and I didn't say everything was going to be fine, I said it marked a turning point of great change.

Altair - keep things straight.

Originally Posted by Debrah

Well the discussion may be about eating animals or vegetables and you brought Gandhi into the discussion. That you're reluctant to accept what the correct facts are concerning his dietary experience is between you and your conscience.
Some would consider it to be all about ego if you chose to ignore the correction. Call it whatever you want.

So animals are to be cared for at all costs - but when disagreeing with another human they are to be treated as being defective and inferior?

Have you really thought that through Debrah?

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Altair

Well you can always believe in the 2012esque Era of Enlightenment and claim everything's going to be fine... or at least eventually..!

Baile.. pick your belief!

This is the second post of mine you've responded to indicating you're "confused" (as you put it) about my posts. 2012? You're several millenia off. My spiritual focus and understandings go back to Taoism and Hermeticism. You seem to be mixing me up with the 21st century ascension-belief crowd.

I went back and re-read your comment, and I honestly have no idea what you are pointing out here. Pick my beliefs? What does that mean? I've been clear throughout these conversations. I say killing and eating animals is completely unnecessary. Killing and eating animals is a lower form of consciousness. A higher form of consciousness, as per the thread topic, is the evolution of empathy, which leads to the awakening-understanding that killing and eating animals is a lower form of consciousness.

You talked about the need to shoot predator animals and so forth. I would say that has very little to do with the core issues being raised here and on other such threads in the Vegan Forum. IMO, your comment falls into the same catagory as Lucky's "Deer Hunting Season!!!" thread. Some people look for reasons to shoot and kill animals. And many take great pleasure in it, four exclamation-mark ecstasy in fact.

[Altair]

Easy man, calm down, lol! I was referring to your last line about needing a ''solace''.. you could believe in the 'new agey' 2012 Era of Enlightenment stuff, then you could believe all will be well in the world, including concerning this topic. That could be a personal ''solace'' if you want to, I believe it wouldn't be based on what's going on in the world with animals and wildlife, but for some people it's an escape. I remember it was a big thing pre-2012. It seems you took it the wrong way..

At times people can be so serious and heavy hearted on here... Relax!

Originally Posted by Baile

You talked about the need to shoot predator animals and so forth. I would say that has very little to do with the core issues being raised here. I would say that falls into the same catagory as Lucky's "Deer Hunting Season!!!" thread. Some people will always look for reasons to shoot and kill animals, period.

What ''need''...? What animals?? This is about the wolves or the cats?
Perhaps it wasn't strictly ''on-topic'' yes, but it's how conversations can evolve..

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Altair

What ''need''...? What animals?? This is about the wolves or the cats?
Perhaps it wasn't strictly ''on-topic'' yes, but it's how conversations can evolve..

I'm starting to think this is an 'English not the first language' issue.

-You talked about the need to kill predator animals.
-I responded to your post, and suggested the need to kill predator animals has little to do with the OP's thread topic, which is evolving empathy for animals.
-You then replied to me and posted the above, making it sound like you have no idea where I came up with the idea of needing to kill predator animals.

I honestly don't know where to go from here with this particular dialogue.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Altair

Easy man, calm down, lol! At times people can be so serious and heavy hearted on here... Relax!

Okay, thanks for that. I'm pretty relaxed BTW, I just despise blatant and wilful dishonesty. It happens all the time in spiritual forums: materialists and sceptics join the forum and pass themselves off as "alternative" thinkers. Or gun-lovers and hunters posting in the Vegan forum offering an "alternative" view on killing animals. I don't stay quiet when I see deceptive nonsense of that sort, is all.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Baile

I'm starting to think this is an 'English not the first language' issue.

-You talked about the need to kill predator animals.
-I responded to your post, and suggested the need to kill predator animals has little to do with the OP's thread topic, which is evolving empathy for animals.
-You then replied to me and posted the above, making it sound like you have no idea where I came up with the idea of needing to kill predator animals.

I honestly don't know where to go from here with this particular dialogue.

What predators...?? I mentioned I'm in favour of ecological restoration with the help of wolves!!! Feel free to quote me or point me to a comment to prove me wrong. The only time I am in favour of hunting was in the case of invasive species like in Australia and New Zealand, where I mentioned cats. Cats and wolves are both predators hence my question ''What animals?? This is about the wolves or the cats?''

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Baile

Okay, thanks for that. I'm pretty relaxed BTW, I just despise blatant and wilful dishonesty. It happens all the time in spiritual forums: materialists and sceptics join the forum and pass themselves off as "alternative" thinkers. Or gun-lovers and hunters posting in the Vegan forum offering an "alternative" view on killing animals. I don't stay quiet when I see deceptive nonsense of that sort, is all.

A lot of people don't have any spiritual experience, or perhaps at least to their understanding they don't view it as such. They have all the right in the world to be sceptical.. I don't blame them. I am pretty sceptical about a lot of things myself, yet I also believe in a lot of spiritual stuff. In any case, atheists don't bother me nor should they bother anyone else on here. If you had a wonderful spiritual experience they can't take that away from you!! Anyway, I much rather see an atheist living an ethical life than a self proclaimed spiritual person who tells me we should be indifferent to suffering. Ethics make the man/woman, not spiritual beliefs... lots of people claim to believe in a loving god, and look how that works out most of the time..

[AutumnGold]

meat is loaded with steroids and antibiotics
and the fear and sad energy the animal felt, you then consume

if people eat to satisfy their taste buds -then that is truly lower frequency behaviour