Continuation of Meditation

[VinceField]

Giving meditation advice can be tricky business.

Some of this may have been already said or hinted at. Just my thoughts:

One important consideration is the purpose of a person's meditation practice. Are they meditating simply because it helps them relax and feel more grounded and balanced? Or do they have more serious ambitions, such as if the meditation practice is part of a dedicated spiritual path with the goal of achieving significant personal transformation?

There are many different meditation methods which bring about unique results. Is the method being implored in alignment with the person's goals for the meditation, or are there methods which bring about the desired results more efficiently? Is the person meditating in a way which is counterproductive to their purpose?

Another important consideration is the case of using meditation for less than wholesome purposes or in ways which lead to less than wholesome long term results. An example of this is what is called "spiritual bypassing." It's best explained using a quote from one of my favorite teachers:

"An example of spiritual bypassing is this: Suppose you have troubles in your life and you don't want to engage in the difficult business of trying to become more mature in dealing with others or negotiating the conflicting desires in your own mind. Instead, you simply go and meditate, you do prostrations, you do chanting, and you hope that those practices will magically make the problems in your life go away. This is called spiritual bypassing — an unskillful way of clinging to habits and practices. As you can imagine, it's not very healthy — and not very effective. People often come back from meditation retreats and they still have the same problems they had before."

I'm sure there are more points to consider but that's all that comes to mind for now. Take care.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I never recommend some system or practice designed or thought up by me. I Usally try it hit systems like Dzogchen, Kashmir Shaivism, Qi Gong, Zen I think you get my point. You can learn many of these for free in temples close by.

Or you could just make some stuff up :)

I've studied and practiced Qi Gong and Zen, as well as vipassana and more. They simply didn't work for me. (Oh, and by the by... A dear friend is a Zen monk.) And really, I don't care if you don't follow your own path. Just stop telling others not to follow their own paths. Just stop.

The real truth is this: whatever works, works. ("Works" not by your definitions or your rules, and not by mine. If it works, hallelujah!)

[jonesboy]

What is your definition of "it working"?

Maybe that is the problem. Maybe our goals are different.

Vince,

I agree 100%

[Gem]

Originally Posted by wstein

In the context of this discussion (narrow in scope) one might get that impression. Hey I'm at where I'm at too. In the infinite there are just as many 'further' along than I am as are 'behind'. Not of course that those terms have any significance.

Ok, but people are as they are and that's just how it is. It is insignificant because there's only here and moving forward.

Those that know me can attest that I shake my head as much at those considered by other to be spiritually advanced as those still just beginning. Its not that I think them stupid, its that I just can't figure out what they are up to. Doesn't really matter, I just find it curious. I think everyone's doings seem a bit peculiar to others. This feeling comes from them being different than ourselves and not really knowing who they are.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

Acceptance means taking things as they are without being judgmental. It matters not whether or not they are making progress especially to another's eyes. If one 'has to' then its not acceptance.

Ok, sounds very reasonable.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

Giving meditation advice can be tricky business.

Some of this may have been already said or hinted at. Just my thoughts:

One important consideration is the purpose of a person's meditation practice. Are they meditating simply because it helps them relax and feel more grounded and balanced? Or do they have more serious ambitions, such as if the meditation practice is part of a dedicated spiritual path with the goal of achieving significant personal transformation?

Yep. Inquiring why clarifies the intent.

There are many different meditation methods which bring about unique results. Is the method being implored in alignment with the person's goals for the meditation, or are there methods which bring about the desired results more efficiently? Is the person meditating in a way which is counterproductive to their purpose?

There's can be problems with goals and the desires in meditation, and it's a tentative area to navigate.

Another important consideration is the case of using meditation for less than wholesome purposes or in ways which lead to less than wholesome long term results. An example of this is what is called "spiritual bypassing." It's best explained using a quote from one of my favorite teachers:

"An example of spiritual bypassing is this: Suppose you have troubles in your life and you don't want to engage in the difficult business of trying to become more mature in dealing with others or negotiating the conflicting desires in your own mind. Instead, you simply go and meditate, you do prostrations, you do chanting, and you hope that those practices will magically make the problems in your life go away. This is called spiritual bypassing — an unskillful way of clinging to habits and practices. As you can imagine, it's not very healthy — and not very effective. People often come back from meditation retreats and they still have the same problems they had before."

I'm sure there are more points to consider but that's all that comes to mind for now. Take care.

It's actually a good point, and in my view, meditation practice should be of such a nature that a person is directly confronted with their problems.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Everly

I've studied and practiced Qi Gong and Zen, as well as vipassana and more. They simply didn't work for me. (Oh, and by the by... A dear friend is a Zen monk.) And really, I don't care if you don't follow your own path. Just stop telling others not to follow their own paths. Just stop.

The real truth is this: whatever works, works. ("Works" not by your definitions or your rules, and not by mine. If it works, hallelujah!)

I think the deeper aspects start at 'whatever works' but there can be problems with selfishness intent, so there really has to be a high integrity in the approach, whatever that might be.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What is your definition of "it working"?

Maybe that is the problem. Maybe our goals are different.

Vince,

I agree 100%

I find it peculiar that differing goals would be problematic. I think you mean the other persons goals differ to yours and you have problem with that.

I have also wondered about 'it working' and what that really means, and I don't think my practice works, but it's interesting what unfolds, so what it boils down to is, systems out of antiquity aren't for everyone, and no one really knows what other people need.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I find it peculiar that differing goals would be problematic. I think you mean the other persons goals differ to yours and you have problem with that.

I have also wondered about 'it working' and what that really means, and I don't think my practice works, but it's interesting what unfolds, so what it boils down to is, systems out of antiquity aren't for everyone, and no one really knows what other people need.

What I meant was, what is your goal for meditation. If it is just meditation, basic meditation without trying to hit any higher levels. Then a lot of the comments and post made on this site would fit that.

If you are looking for more, if you are trying to reach the higher states, feel the flow of energy and improve the quality of your life then we are talking more in line with my goals and ideas.

As far as what does working mean.

A basic definition would be one that increases the silence and improves the quality of ones life. A practice that step by step leads to greater levels of counsciousness.

It doesn't have to involve energy practices like Pranayama right from the start like Yoga does. You don't have to use energy practices at an advanced level (at least heart opening) like tantra. If you know your practice can lead you to understand what emptiness is and the clear light. You have a good practice.

One thing that has been misunderstood. A teacher doesn't teach a student to find his goals. A teacher helps a student find his own goals. I am letting the student know about a lot of different paths with proven results. You are saying there is no path.. just make it up

[wstein]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I Usally try it hit systems like Dzogchen, Kashmir Shaivism, Qi Gong, Zen I think you get my point.

Or you could just make some stuff up :)

I am curious, where do you think those systems came from? Didn't someone(s) make them up?

[jonesboy]

Nope,

Research them and find out. I will give you a hint.

Terma.

Also I would like to point out that each of those systems have been tested out for thousands of years.

But I am sure you know better... right :)