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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #41  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:12 PM
WabiSabi WabiSabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froebellian
What I find misleading is the title of the thread...why ask a question when you have already decided on an answer and aren't prepared to accept other theories or beliefs?

To me that is the essence of an unrealistic outlook. I often find people that ask these rhetorical questions do so to espouse their own beliefs and I've seen this type of behavior used in cults. They give you an answer before you've even answered. If so, please don't ask questions that you don't wish to see answers to that you don't want to read.

Haha, I think you are getting ahead of yourself. I was sitting back and enjoying the responses until davidsun asked that I elaborate. I am genuinely interested in the views of others, as I have yet to find another that does not align itself with my own view.

You are right in that I believe I am correct, and that no words in a forum will (most likely) change my opinion. My belief is not based in intellect, but in direct experience. I believe in what I experienced because it was more real than anything else I have ever experienced. However, what I experienced was infinite, and my thoughts on what I experienced are very finite. The views of others are a great way of building on my thoughts of That Which Is.

My goal here was to start a good discussion, and it seems I have succeeded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
Well, you never know, it may lead to a broadening of awareness, a new line of enquiry.

I'm more likely to respond to topics like this where the initiator espouses a view.

They may return to contradict mine and, who knows, I might learn something new.

Indeed.
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  #42  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:16 PM
WabiSabi WabiSabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
This illustrates the 'either' way of seeing phenom:



That basic illustration is like to "Two Slit" experiment which basically 'dramatizes' one of the key principles of Quantum Physics.

Actually, there is no limit to the number of ways in which something can be 'seen' as is implicit in your most artful discourse on Reality (so far in this thread, IMO), WabiSabi.

Though not as fully (meaning personal-vision revealingly), not yet at least, people are getting 'on board', so the campfire is 'warmer', I think.

One drop at a time ends up with a river flowing!

Think of me as a Black Labrador jumping in and enjoying a getting-wet swim! Woohoo!

Yes. My perspective constantly flip-flops between these different, seemingly contradictory views. This reality is both unified and differentiated. This reality is both static and dynamic. This reality is both perfect and imperfect. It's almost vertigo-inducing to be honest.
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  #43  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:17 PM
Kioma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi WabiSabi,
I would strongly encourage you to first examine the overarching assumption, or unconscious premise which allows the “Either/Or” paradigm - for example, as laid out in your OP - to represent (or speculate on) ultimate utility in these matters.

It is that very binary paradigm itself which serves to obscure the real circumstance, by the necessarily imposed exclusion of one of the two models, solely by virtue of the other model’s inclusion as sole truth…when really both are true - - they are not mutually exclusive. And not only that, one is derivative of, and dependent on the other.


In the Cosmic Will, everything is perfect, because the Cosmic Will faultlessly supports the dynamic evolution of consciousness in the physical universe including and allowing - all ignorance and inconscience, partial awareness, limitation, and (ironically - or not!) imperfection which is dynamically differentiated into necessarily interdependent - and often conflicting - forces of individuated ‘will’. In this way, incessant change is always happening and is unavoidable. But it for the most part is within the illusion of freedom, that which is actually an imprisonment or bondage in subservience to the generalised forces of Nature, Maya as the ever-present basis for that dynamic evolution.

It is perfect, this ‘dance’ of reality in the physical, in the sense that everything is as it ‘should be’, IS, and cannot be anything else in the moment, even as it changes - a perfect manifestation of all forces in their unique dynamic interdependence within the multiplicity of Life, right now at this moment.

However, the Self itself cannot be FULLY perfect if the instrumental self in differentiated form has no awareness, or has a limited partial awareness of its True Nature or Real Self, and therefore operates as an instrument of this ignorance.

The purpose of the Transcendental Will, which the Cosmic Will serves - is for the incessant transformation, transcendence, and perfection of the Cosmic Ignorance, in all its forms and manifestations into the glory, light, delight, perfection, beauty, power, gnosis and real freedom of the infinite eternal Transcendental Being which is the source and real Reality of all - all consciousness, all existence - to be incessantly revealed and embodied fully, as the Creative expression of that infinite eternal all conscious Being.

If the Cosmic Will did not support and execute this Transcendental Will in its conditional ignorance, everything would remain eternally ignorant of Self, with no emerging aspiration for the evolving manifestation of True Being - just the manifestation of the relative play of finite ignorant formations - a ‘kind-of perfection’ yes, but not a ‘perfect’ perfection**.

It is therefore the Transcendental Will - which is present and available as a conscious force within us - that is the true perfection UNCONDITIONAL - which is inexorably emerging as evolving consciousness in the physical which is faultlessly, dynamically executed by the Cosmic Will as CONDITIONAL perfection.

Everything IS perfect, but we may consciously invoke concentrate and accelerate greater perfection, more perfect perfection as a conscious deliberate way of life in and through it, through an intelligent will. It is that conscious instrumental will in aspiring human life which is aligning with, as it increasingly surrenders to, the Transcendental Will.
** Otherwise, it's difficult to imagine that all the pain and suffering, confusion and frustration of Earthly life is somehow also a demonstration of this perfection, except for that it is conditional.

~ J
Brilliantly said Jyotir.

For myself, I have the sense that all is as it should be, and part of that is all the drama of existence, out of which our consciousness evolves. That we evolve is the plan of God. That we fall short is the plan of God. That we choose is the plan of God, thus there is no 'wrong' answer, only more drama prodding us to always further express who we really are.

A main sticking point seems to be imagining ourselves separate from the universe. If you think about it, we aren't. I like your point about both sides not being mutually exclusive, because while we are all individuals, we are also all one - one with ALL.

.
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  #44  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:32 PM
WabiSabi WabiSabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi WabiSabi,
I would strongly encourage you to first examine the overarching assumption, or unconscious premise which allows the “Either/Or” paradigm - for example, as laid out in your OP - to represent (or speculate on) ultimate utility in these matters.

It is that very binary paradigm itself which serves to obscure the real circumstance, by the necessarily imposed exclusion of one of the two models, solely by virtue of the other model’s inclusion as sole truth…when really both are true - - they are not mutually exclusive. And not only that, one is derivative of, and dependent on the other.


In the Cosmic Will, everything is perfect, because the Cosmic Will faultlessly supports the dynamic evolution of consciousness in the physical universe including and allowing - all ignorance and inconscience, partial awareness, limitation, and (ironically - or not!) imperfection which is dynamically differentiated into necessarily interdependent - and often conflicting - forces of individuated ‘will’. In this way, incessant change is always happening and is unavoidable. But it for the most part is within the illusion of freedom, that which is actually an imprisonment or bondage in subservience to the generalised forces of Nature, Maya as the ever-present basis for that dynamic evolution.

It is perfect, this ‘dance’ of reality in the physical, in the sense that everything is as it ‘should be’, IS, and cannot be anything else in the moment, even as it changes - a perfect manifestation of all forces in their unique dynamic interdependence within the multiplicity of Life, right now at this moment.

However, the Self itself cannot be FULLY perfect if the instrumental self in differentiated form has no awareness, or has a limited partial awareness of its True Nature or Real Self, and therefore operates as an instrument of this ignorance.

The purpose of the Transcendental Will, which the Cosmic Will serves - is for the incessant transformation, transcendence, and perfection of the Cosmic Ignorance, in all its forms and manifestations into the glory, light, delight, perfection, beauty, power, gnosis and real freedom of the infinite eternal Transcendental Being which is the source and real Reality of all - all consciousness, all existence - to be incessantly revealed and embodied fully, as the Creative expression of that infinite eternal all conscious Being.

If the Cosmic Will did not support and execute this Transcendental Will in its conditional ignorance, everything would remain eternally ignorant of Self, with no emerging aspiration for the evolving manifestation of True Being - just the manifestation of the relative play of finite ignorant formations - a ‘kind-of perfection’ yes, but not a ‘perfect’ perfection**.

It is therefore the Transcendental Will - which is present and available as a conscious force within us - that is the true perfection UNCONDITIONAL - which is inexorably emerging as evolving consciousness in the physical which is faultlessly, dynamically executed by the Cosmic Will as CONDITIONAL perfection.

Everything IS perfect, but we may consciously invoke concentrate and accelerate greater perfection, more perfect perfection as a conscious deliberate way of life in and through it, through an intelligent will. It is that conscious instrumental will in aspiring human life which is aligning with, as it increasingly surrenders to, the Transcendental Will.
** Otherwise, it's difficult to imagine that all the pain and suffering, confusion and frustration of Earthly life is somehow also a demonstration of this perfection, except for that it is conditional.

~ J

I understand what you are saying, but I believe that you can go beyond that. You say that the Transcendental Will's purpose is to change ignorance to transcendence, but that would imply a beginning and an end. It begins in ignorance, and ends in awakening, and so the story is concluded and nothing else need happen.

I don't believe in beginnings and endings. Or rather I should say that I believe in relative beginnings and relative endings, but not absolutes. I believe that every beginning is an end and every end is a beginning.

And so I would like to counter your statement. In order for there to be transcendence, there MUST be ignorance. You can't have one without the other. And considering the infinite nature of reality (the reality I experience mind you), it is always balanced and complete. Therefor, in order for ignorance to be destroyed, it must also be created. In order to experience awakening, one must first experience ignorance. And so these two opposites exist alongside each other as Yin and Yang, one never winning out over the other.

Within the infinite universe, there is infinite ignorance infinitely transforming into infinite transcendence.

I am sort of playing Devil's advocate here, because I do realize that both perfection and imperfection are true. But I truly see imperfection as perfect, as I define the word.

Also, you say that the two 'models' are both true, but that one is derivative of and dependent on the other. Why do you think that? I personally believe that both 'models' are equal, and that each is dependent on the other, and neither can exist without the other. I am curious to see what you say.
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  #45  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:42 PM
Badcopyinc
Posts: n/a
 
When you crush a flower it releases a beautiful scent.
This is said to be what forgiveness is.

Perfection!
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  #46  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:44 PM
WabiSabi WabiSabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badcopyinc
When you crush a flower it releases a beautiful scent.
This is said to be what forgiveness is.

Perfection!

Mmm, I like that.
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  #47  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:47 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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I 'hear' how you 'heard' my post, SOL :). As is true of everyone, you are the one who is in the position to really know yourself the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight
And how is it wrong to be into metal???
Did I say it was 'wrong'? I said: "I would advise you to stay away from 'heavy metal' music if you are 'into' it, that is if you wish to take the 'other' path." It is time for you to 'own' your own distortions of the truth, inquire into and examine yourself as to what (in you!) gave rise to these, and make life-course-corrections in said regard, again, that is if you wish to change the tragic-tragectory you are clearly on, again, by your own admission (in your signature lines).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight
Metal has nothing to do with any of my personal situations. I find it totally ignorant of you to stereotype metal with anger and darkness. After having attended many concerts, I can tell you that metalheads are some of the happiest people you may ever see. I never witnessed any fights, brawls, or negativity at all, as everyone accepts each other the way they are in the metal community. In fact, people who are both unhappy AND into metal such as me tend to be kinda rare.
Maybe so and maybe not. The 'release' of anger, rage, stick-your-tongue out and middle-finger-up at what is experienced as Life's 'badness' does make people 'happy' - providing a kind of catharsis, like vomiting up 'bad' food', I think. Here is a link to an news article which lends support to my view rather than yours. Of course, the 'whole truth', including the truth about what it actually does to and for you is something I cannot and do not know. Continue 'reveling' in it if that's your choice ...

And you should know that there are many positive and uplifting metal bands out there that inspire people and bring happiness.[/quote]
I wouldn't argue against this. My advice wold be to only to those then. But seriously consider the implications of the fact that other may see what some think of as 'positive' and 'uplifting' as being the 'opposite', as in the case the 'reality' WabiSabi references. A case in point, I did a search for "Inspirational heavy metal bands", followed up with this link and copied the following lyrics:

"Dying doesn't make this world dead to us
Breathing doesn't keep the flame alive in us
Dreaming doesn't make time less real for us
One life
One chance
All ephemeral"

Not exactly my idea of positive and uplifting, or what's really 'true' for that matter - in one life, one chance case, for instance, the Catholic Church branded the idea of reincarnation to be anathema as part of their campaign to brainwash people to buy into their version of reality and so inculcate complete adherence to their 'message' regarding 'salvation' and 'perdition'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight
... Rather, it's my FUTURE I am deeply concerned about, and finding that which I desperately seek. Yes, I cannot deny that it sucks to have a dark past, but it is not the main cause of my situation. In the end, the only thing that matters is the future. I'd rather live an early, hellish life with a bright future than an early happy life with a hopeless future.
OK. Apply what I said in the piece of my writing I quoted to that hopelessness and consequent 'Dark night of the Soul" then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight
Also, I hate to disappoint you but I have experienced no such thing as an ego-death and I don't want that neither because my ego is what identifies me among the billions of other humans living on this planet. It is basically my sense of self, and I don't want to lose that.
I am not disappointed (another 'untruthful' projection on your part, which 'serves' 'you' how, I wonder? Clearly then, your 'ego' is still 'alive' and 'protesting'. News flash: the billions of other humans on this planet are all going to die, the only difference being that some will do so sooner and others, and whether sooner or later, some will live and die more 'happily' (even ecstatically so!) and others will live and die more 'unhappily' (even 'desperately' and 'hopelessly' so).

How can I be disappointed when I have given you the very best I am able to give? I fulfilled my heartfelt desire because I chose to and did do that. Your acceptance or rejection of said 'gift' is your business. I long ago learned and embraced the fact that one, in this case I, can't please, let alone help, everyone!

As is true of everyone else (said billions included) your spiritual 'fate' is in your hands - and no one else's.
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  #48  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:15 PM
froebellian froebellian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WabiSabi
Haha, I think you are getting ahead of yourself. I was sitting back and enjoying the responses until davidsun asked that I elaborate. I am genuinely interested in the views of others, as I have yet to find another that does not align itself with my own view.

You are right in that I believe I am correct, and that no words in a forum will (most likely) change my opinion. My belief is not based in intellect, but in direct experience. I believe in what I experienced because it was more real than anything else I have ever experienced. However, what I experienced was infinite, and my thoughts on what I experienced are very finite. The views of others are a great way of building on my thoughts of That Which Is.

My goal here was to start a good discussion, and it seems I have succeeded.



Indeed.

No, I'm not getting ahead of myself and what is quite real is that this thread serves little purpose and there is no discussion, just people saying what they believe and that is not a discussion.

Seems like a click and bait header, something millennials think is acceptable and normal. A reality check here, it's not. I won't waste anymore of my time on a futile thread. Members blocked and out.
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  #49  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:30 PM
WabiSabi WabiSabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froebellian
No, I'm not getting ahead of myself and what is quite real is that this thread serves little purpose and there is no discussion, just people saying what they believe and that is not a discussion.

Seems like a click and bait header, something millennials think is acceptable and normal. A reality check here, it's not. I won't waste anymore of my time on a futile thread. Members blocked and out.

Well if it's not too late, and you haven't blocked me yet, I would like to respond.

Why is that wrong?

Yes, this thread is inherently selfish. I am utilizing this forum as a tool to share my beliefs and see how others respond to them. My desire is that by doing so I will learn something. I am very aware of that.

What I don't see is why that is wrong, or why that makes you so angry. So if you can see this, I would just like to ask why do you feel the way that you do?
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  #50  
Old 09-11-2017, 10:05 PM
Badcopyinc
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WabiSabi
Well if it's not too late, and you haven't blocked me yet, I would like to respond.

Why is that wrong?

Yes, this thread is inherently selfish. I am utilizing this forum as a tool to share my beliefs and see how others respond to them. My desire is that by doing so I will learn something. I am very aware of that.

What I don't see is why that is wrong, or why that makes you so angry. So if you can see this, I would just like to ask why do you feel the way that you do?

This post is the most amazing thing I've read today!
You're admitting that the original post is selfish and that your motives aren't altruistic. That is beautiful to me.

I was just discussing what the world would be like if everyone only worried about themselves and you're waving that flag very high my friend!
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