What's an animal to do?

[sky]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Hi Sky,

What else is Kamma but cause and effect.
Impersonal, trancient and dhukka.

I think Kamma is caused by intentional and unintentional behaviour.
All action is based on the conscious or unconscious mind .

One of the fundamental views in Buddhism is the principle of "dependent origination." This states that all phenomena, both subjective experiences and external objects, come into existence in dependence upon causes and conditions; nothing comes into existence uncaused.

Every action/phenomena has been caused and likewise is the cause of another phenomenon. Just that is what Kamma is. No judgement of the action involved. No system in place to see whether the action was intentional or not.

It is with that impartiallity to the cause of suffering that subsequent birth's are certain. The actions that are remembered at the time of death are (unfortunately) often the regrets we have about desire's we still have. Those desire's are what bring forth a new birth..

Pling,, 2cents

We can agree to disagree

Originally Posted by sky123

We can agree to disagree

That is a shame, because it would mean we both haven't found what's what with regard to Kamma..
There are some parts we agree on I think.
Namely that Kamma somehow governs causes and their effect's. Yes?

From what I read in the sutta's the Buddha made pretty clear what he means by causes and how they give rise to certain effects.

So maybe we can explore that part together if you want to.

With Love

[sky]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

That is a shame, because it would mean we both haven't found what's what with regard to Kamma..
There are some parts we agree on I think.
Namely that Kamma somehow governs causes and their effect's. Yes?

From what I read in the sutta's the Buddha made pretty clear what he means by causes and how they give rise to certain effects.

So maybe we can explore that part together if you want to.

With Love

Yes explore together sounds good, then we can make things more complicated for each other

The way I understand it is like we agreed on ' Cause and effect ' is Kamma but not all things that happen are the results of Kamma, I will try and find the teaching on this as I can't remember the exact words.

Animals is what we seem to understand differently. Because I see it is volitation not the action that reeps Kamma I can't see how the natural instinct in animals would be classed as bad intent so even though an animal will bite if it threatened ( cause and effect ) that is a natural reaction, animals being animals.
That's how my little mind understands it but I am open to different opinions which might help.

[BlueSky]

A squirrel gets run over by a car or a tsunami kills 5000 people or you catch a cold from touching a door handle infected with the virus or you die from cancer because a factory nearby was polluting the air.....these all have in common, cause and effect but they also have in common that volition had no part in them.

How does Buddhism address such things? Just curious.

[sky]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

A squirrel gets run over by a car or a tsunami kills 5000 people or you catch a cold from touching a door handle infected with the virus or you die from cancer because a factory nearby was polluting the air.....these all have in common, cause and effect but they also have in common that volition had no part in them.

How does Buddhism address such things? Just curious.

In my understanding natural disasters, sickness etc: have nothing to do with Kamma but the way we experience and respond to them is. Buddha taught that not everything we experience is because of Kamma.

[sky]

Although Buddhism attributes this variation to Karma, as being the chief cause among a variety, it does not, however, assert that everything is due to Karma. The law of Karma, important as it is, is only one of the twenty-four conditions described in Buddhist Philosophy.

Refuting the erroneous view that "whatsoever fortune or misfortune experienced is all due to some previous action", the Buddha said:

"So, then, according to this view, owing to previous action men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, covetous, malicious and perverts. Thus, for those who fall back on the former deeds as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor effort to do, nor necessity to do this deed, or abstain from this deed."

It was this important text, which states the belief that all physical circumstances and mental attitudes spring solely from past Karma that Buddha contradicted. If the present life is totally conditioned or wholly controlled by our past actions, then certainly Karma is tantamount to fatalism or determinism or predestination. If this were true, free will would be an absurdity. Life would be purely mechanistic, not much different from a machine.

This is part of an article from Buddha net.

Originally Posted by sky123

Yes explore together sounds good, then we can make things more complicated for each other

The way I understand it is like we agreed on ' Cause and effect ' is Kamma but not all things that happen are the results of Kamma, I will try and find the teaching on this as I can't remember the exact words.

Animals is what we seem to understand differently. Because I see it is volitation not the action that reeps Kamma I can't see how the natural instinct in animals would be classed as bad intent so even though an animal will bite if it threatened ( cause and effect ) that is a natural reaction, animals being animals.
That's how my little mind understands it but I am open to different opinions which might help.

Ok complicating it is.

So i've been reading the kamma study guide on accestoinsight.
I have to admit that it is posed there that The buddha said that Kamma is intentional action.
looking up the relevant sutta:
Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

So back to animals..
The question was what is an animal to do.
I am pondering that an animal due the the fact that like you say cannot intent action. As it is driven by instinct it cannot incur new Kamma.
So living out his life or lives as an animal due to Kama she will someday be born in a realm where the opportunity exists to intentionally create better kamma or leave the cycle of birth and kamma all together.

That is the intentional side.
The second statement above however. Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play does suggest to me that it is part of the from ignorance to birth cycle I revered to earlier.

Also the suggested personal or impersonal nature of Kamma has me confused.
As the Buddha talk about 2 extreme views that need to be avoided.
'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme."
and
'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences,' is the second extreme.

Trying to explore deeper the Buddha dismisses some questions as imponderable
and invalid.

I think this means that to stay on the path it is enough to know that ones own actions shape Kamma. questioning others Kamma(i.e what is an animal to do) falls outside the realm of what one can know or influence..
A better question then perhaps is what we can do to help animals.

With Love
Eelco

[sky]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Ok complicating it is.

So i've been reading the kamma study guide on accestoinsight.
I have to admit that it is posed there that The buddha said that Kamma is intentional action.
looking up the relevant sutta:
Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

So back to animals..
The question was what is an animal to do.
I am pondering that an animal due the the fact that like you say cannot intent action. As it is driven by instinct it cannot incur new Kamma.
So living out his life or lives as an animal due to Kama she will someday be born in a realm where the opportunity exists to intentionally create better kamma or leave the cycle of birth and kamma all together.

That is the intentional side.
The second statement above however. Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play does suggest to me that it is part of the from ignorance to birth cycle I revered to earlier.

Also the suggested personal or impersonal nature of Kamma has me confused.
As the Buddha talk about 2 extreme views that need to be avoided.
'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme."
and
'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences,' is the second extreme.

Trying to explore deeper the Buddha dismisses some questions as imponderable
and invalid.

I think this means that to stay on the path it is enough to know that ones own actions shape Kamma. questioning others Kamma(i.e what is an animal to do) falls outside the realm of what one can know or influence..
A better question then perhaps is what we can do to help animals.

With Love
Eelco

'Whats an animal to do' just be an animal.
'What can we do to help animals' just love them.

I can't think of any other answers and because Kamma has me confused, I don't need anymore confusion at the moment

In 1966 Buddhadhasa Bhikku gave two talks on Buddhism for students of the Thammasat University in Bangkok. The goal was to provide them with answers to common questions of non-buddhists. As you would have it one of those answers dealt with Kamma. I think some of our "disagreement" and confusion may stem from a difference in understanding the difference in good, bad and neither good or bad Kamma.

I hope this may clarify it a little.

With regard to the OP. For me these words give rise to a slither of hope that even animals may give rise to a basic selfless understanding of what actions or intentions (mindstates) give rise to continued Kamma and which (mindstate) will cause the cessation of continued Kamma.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

14) Now I shall say something on kamma in
Buddhism, by asking,
14) “What role does kamma play in Buddhism?
MANY WESTERNERS HAVE written books on Buddhism, and
they seem to be most proud of the chapters dealing with
kamma (Sanskrit, karma) and rebirth. But their explanations are
wrong, quite wrong every time. Those Westerners set out to explain
kamma, but all they really say is that good kamma is good and evil
kamma is evil. “Do good, receive good; do evil, receive evil”, and
nothing more, is exactly the same doctrine as is found in every reli-
gion. This is not kamma as it is taught in Buddhism.
With rebirth it is the same. They make their assertions just
as if they had seen with their own eyes the very same individuals
being reborn. This misrepresents the Buddha’s main message, which
teaches the non-existence of “the individual”, of “the self”. Even
though “I” am sitting here now, yet there is no individual to be
found. When there is no individual, what is there to die? What is
there to be reborn? The Buddha taught the non-existence of “the
individual”, of “the person”. Thus, birth and death are matters of
relative truth. The writers of books entitled “Buddhism” generally
explain kamma and rebirth quite wrongly.
Do pay close attention to this matter of kamma. To be the Bud-
dhist account it must deal with the cessation of kamma, not just
with kamma itself and its effects — as found in all religions. To be
the Buddha’s teaching it must deal with the cessation of kamma.
A sabbakammakkhayaṃ-patto is one who has attained the ces-
sation of all kamma. The Buddha taught that kamma ceases with
the ceasing of lust, hatred, and delusion (rāga, dosa, and moha).
This is easy to remember. Kamma ceases when lust, hatred, and
delusion cease, that is, when the mental defilements cease. If lust,
hatred, and delusion do not cease, kamma does not cease. When
lust, hatred, and delusion do cease, old kamma ceases, no present
kamma is produced, and no new future kamma is produced —
thus kamma past, present, and future ceases. When a person puts
an end to lust, hatred, and delusion, kamma ceases. This is how it
must be explained. Only such an account of kamma can be called
the Buddhist account.
So we find there is a third kind of kamma. Most people know
of only the first and second kinds of kamma, good and evil kamma.
They don’t know yet what the third kind of kamma is. The Buddha
called the first kind of kamma black or evil kamma, and the sec-
ond kind white or good kamma. The kind of kamma that can be
called neither-black-nor-white is that which puts an end to both
black kamma and white kamma. This third kind of kamma is a
tool for putting a complete stop to both black and white kamma.
The Buddha used these terms “black kamma”, “white kamma”,
and “ kamma neither-black-nor-white”. This third type of kamma is
kamma in the Buddhist sense, kamma according to Buddhist prin-
ciples. As has been said, to put an end to lust, hatred, and delusion
is to put an end to kamma. Thus, the third kind of kamma is the
ending of lust, hatred, and delusion; in other words, it is the Noble
Eightfold Path. Whenever we behave and practise in accordance
with the Noble Eightfold Path, that is the third type of kamma. It
is neither black nor white; rather it brings to an end black kamma
and white kamma. It is world-transcending (lokuttara), above good
and above evil.
This third type of kamma is never discussed by Westerners in
their chapters on “Kamma and Rebirth”. They get it all wrong; what
they expound is not Buddhism at all. To be Buddhist, they should
deal with the third type of kamma, the kamma that is capable of
bringing to an end lust, hatred, and delusion. Then the whole lot
of old kamma — black kamma and white kamma — ends as well.
Now let us say something more about this third kind of kamma.
In this connection the Buddha said, “I came to a clear realization
of this through my own sublime wisdom.” This teaching of the dis-
tinctly different, third type of kamma was not taken over by the
Awakened One from any existing creed or religion. It is something
he came to know with his own insight and then taught to all. So
we ought to keep in mind that the teaching of this third type of
kamma is the real Buddhist teaching on kamma. Any manual on
kamma in Buddhism, any book entitled “Kamma and Rebirth”,
ought to be written on these lines. Do study closely and take an
interest in the Buddhist explanation of kamma. That account of
good and bad kamma is found in all religions. Buddhism has it too.
It tells us that doing good is good and doing evil is evil. They all
teach the same thing. But the Buddha said that merely producing
good kamma does not extinguish mental suffering completely and
absolutely, because one goes right on being infatuated by and grasp-
ing at good kamma. In other words, good kamma still causes one
to go round in the cycle of birth and death, albeit in good states of
existence. It is not complete quenching, coolness, nibbāna.
So there is a kamma taught exclusively by the Buddha, a third
type that does away with all kamma and makes an end of lust,
hatred, and delusion. It is through this third type of kamma that
one attains nibbāna.

With Love

[sky]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

In 1966 Buddhadhasa Bhikku gave two talks on Buddhism for students of the Thammasat University in Bangkok. The goal was to provide them with answers to common questions of non-buddhists. As you would have it one of those answers dealt with Kamma. I think some of our "disagreement" and confusion may stem from a difference in understanding the difference in good, bad and neither good or bad Kamma.

I hope this may clarify it a little.

With regard to the OP. For me these words give rise to a slither of hope that even animals may give rise to a basic selfless understanding of what actions or intentions (mindstates) give rise to continued Kamma and which (mindstate) will cause the cessation of continued Kamma.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

14) Now I shall say something on kamma in
Buddhism, by asking,
14) “What role does kamma play in Buddhism?
MANY WESTERNERS HAVE written books on Buddhism, and
they seem to be most proud of the chapters dealing with
kamma (Sanskrit, karma) and rebirth. But their explanations are
wrong, quite wrong every time. Those Westerners set out to explain
kamma, but all they really say is that good kamma is good and evil
kamma is evil. “Do good, receive good; do evil, receive evil”, and
nothing more, is exactly the same doctrine as is found in every reli-
gion. This is not kamma as it is taught in Buddhism.
With rebirth it is the same. They make their assertions just
as if they had seen with their own eyes the very same individuals
being reborn. This misrepresents the Buddha’s main message, which
teaches the non-existence of “the individual”, of “the self”. Even
though “I” am sitting here now, yet there is no individual to be
found. When there is no individual, what is there to die? What is
there to be reborn? The Buddha taught the non-existence of “the
individual”, of “the person”. Thus, birth and death are matters of
relative truth. The writers of books entitled “Buddhism” generally
explain kamma and rebirth quite wrongly.
Do pay close attention to this matter of kamma. To be the Bud-
dhist account it must deal with the cessation of kamma, not just
with kamma itself and its effects — as found in all religions. To be
the Buddha’s teaching it must deal with the cessation of kamma.
A sabbakammakkhayaṃ-patto is one who has attained the ces-
sation of all kamma. The Buddha taught that kamma ceases with
the ceasing of lust, hatred, and delusion (rāga, dosa, and moha).
This is easy to remember. Kamma ceases when lust, hatred, and
delusion cease, that is, when the mental defilements cease. If lust,
hatred, and delusion do not cease, kamma does not cease. When
lust, hatred, and delusion do cease, old kamma ceases, no present
kamma is produced, and no new future kamma is produced —
thus kamma past, present, and future ceases. When a person puts
an end to lust, hatred, and delusion, kamma ceases. This is how it
must be explained. Only such an account of kamma can be called
the Buddhist account.
So we find there is a third kind of kamma. Most people know
of only the first and second kinds of kamma, good and evil kamma.
They don’t know yet what the third kind of kamma is. The Buddha
called the first kind of kamma black or evil kamma, and the sec-
ond kind white or good kamma. The kind of kamma that can be
called neither-black-nor-white is that which puts an end to both
black kamma and white kamma. This third kind of kamma is a
tool for putting a complete stop to both black and white kamma.
The Buddha used these terms “black kamma”, “white kamma”,
and “ kamma neither-black-nor-white”. This third type of kamma is
kamma in the Buddhist sense, kamma according to Buddhist prin-
ciples. As has been said, to put an end to lust, hatred, and delusion
is to put an end to kamma. Thus, the third kind of kamma is the
ending of lust, hatred, and delusion; in other words, it is the Noble
Eightfold Path. Whenever we behave and practise in accordance
with the Noble Eightfold Path, that is the third type of kamma. It
is neither black nor white; rather it brings to an end black kamma
and white kamma. It is world-transcending (lokuttara), above good
and above evil.
This third type of kamma is never discussed by Westerners in
their chapters on “Kamma and Rebirth”. They get it all wrong; what
they expound is not Buddhism at all. To be Buddhist, they should
deal with the third type of kamma, the kamma that is capable of
bringing to an end lust, hatred, and delusion. Then the whole lot
of old kamma — black kamma and white kamma — ends as well.
Now let us say something more about this third kind of kamma.
In this connection the Buddha said, “I came to a clear realization
of this through my own sublime wisdom.” This teaching of the dis-
tinctly different, third type of kamma was not taken over by the
Awakened One from any existing creed or religion. It is something
he came to know with his own insight and then taught to all. So
we ought to keep in mind that the teaching of this third type of
kamma is the real Buddhist teaching on kamma. Any manual on
kamma in Buddhism, any book entitled “Kamma and Rebirth”,
ought to be written on these lines. Do study closely and take an
interest in the Buddhist explanation of kamma. That account of
good and bad kamma is found in all religions. Buddhism has it too.
It tells us that doing good is good and doing evil is evil. They all
teach the same thing. But the Buddha said that merely producing
good kamma does not extinguish mental suffering completely and
absolutely, because one goes right on being infatuated by and grasp-
ing at good kamma. In other words, good kamma still causes one
to go round in the cycle of birth and death, albeit in good states of
existence. It is not complete quenching, coolness, nibbāna.
So there is a kamma taught exclusively by the Buddha, a third
type that does away with all kamma and makes an end of lust,
hatred, and delusion. It is through this third type of kamma that
one attains nibbāna.

With Love

So to complicate it even more we now have three types of Kamma, isn't one enough
That's an interesting article but I always think of the Buddha's words when reading all these different teachings... 'When you know for yourself etc etc... lead to welfare and happiness then you should enter and remain. ( Kalama Sutta ).
We have to remember whatever we read is just the writers interpretation and we all see things differently. It can become really complicated if you try to delve to deep into each teaching on Kamma, there are so many. I just look at it as cause and effect, sometimes but not always, it's intent not action and I don't believe that animals can reap Karma.
This is where I am at the moment, as I progress more ( hopefully ) it's possible my views will change but for now that's the best I can do, we can but try