"my" truth!

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by athribiristan

So they rattle off what their perception of truth is and then say that if Fred believes P we can't say that P is true for everyone or even everyone who believes it. Good logic doesn't need to make an exception for itself.

You seemed to have missed the point here. The point being that belief is not the same thing as truth. Belief is one's idea of what is true, where as truth is what is actually true, completely independent of belief.

[revolver]

Originally Posted by VinceField

You seemed to have missed the point here. The point being that belief is not the same thing as truth. Belief is one's idea of what is true, where as truth is what is actually true, completely independent of belief.

Well said.

[athribiristan]

Originally Posted by VinceField

You seemed to have missed the point here. The point being that belief is not the same thing as truth. Belief is one's idea of what is true, where as truth is what is actually true, completely independent of belief.

You seem to have missed the point here. The point being that 'what we shouldn't do' is a belief that is being applied to everyone as though it were true for everyone when in fact it is only a belief about what is true.

[kkfern]

Originally Posted by athribiristan

You seem to have missed the point here. The point being that 'what we shouldn't do' is a belief that is being applied to everyone as though it were true for everyone when in fact it is only a belief about what is true.

well said

kk

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by athribiristan

You seem to have missed the point here. The point being that 'what we shouldn't do' is a belief that is being applied to everyone as though it were true for everyone when in fact it is only a belief about what is true.

This is a case where truth and belief intersect. In other words, the belief is an accurate reflection of the truth. It's no different from saying, "if you want to build muscle, you should work out." This is a true statement because the premise is consistent with the conclusion- if you lift weights, you will gain muscle. In the case of the excerpt, the premise is that if you want to have a correct understanding of the concepts of truth and belief, you should not confuse the two. This is true for everyone, because the definitions of truth and belief are the same for everyone.

[Eskay]

We live on "Earth" is true to all of us, which makes it the truth! We all have a brain, which contains the mind, yet another truth of us! What we shouldn't do is destroy the brain or "Earth!" Considered a belief but also the truth!...A belief can be true but the Truth is never a belief.

[athribiristan]

Originally Posted by VinceField

This is a case where truth and belief intersect. In other words, the belief is an accurate reflection of the truth. It's no different from saying, "if you want to build muscle, you should work out." This is a true statement because the premise is consistent with the conclusion- if you lift weights, you will gain muscle. In the case of the excerpt, the premise is that if you want to have a correct understanding of the concepts of truth and belief, you should not confuse the two. This is true for everyone, because the definitions of truth and belief are the same for everyone.

But you yourself have said many times that we can never know truth with certainty, that all we have to go on is our perception of truth, that being our beliefs about what is true. So what you are really saying is that this is a case where one belief about what is true and another belief about what is true intersect.

According to the except, who gets to define 'correct' understanding? We think we understand truth and then a person falls 13,000 feet and lives. Was his understanding of truth incorrect just because by everyone else's definition he should have died? You cannot say what is true, you can only say what is true for you. By virtue of that we cannot say what is true for another person, only they can.


SO:

"So it's true that each of you have a different belief about my wearing Aubergine, but there is the fact of my wearing Aubergine in addition to your beliefs about it. At least that's what we usually think truth is. I mean, as you've seen, there are big questions about whether that's true. But what we shouldn't do is say "truth is something different for each of us, when actually all we mean is that "our beliefs are different, each of us have different beliefs.""

This is a belief about truth.


Do you see that's confusing, claims about peoples beliefs or understanding or knowledge from claims about how the world is. You cannot go from "each of us believes something different about truth" to "truth is different for each of us." And in the same way you can't go from, "Fred believes P," to "therefore P is true for Fred and anyone else who believes P," because all it means is "Fred believes it." So it's very easy to confuse metaphysics from epistemology."

And this is the blanket application of that belief to everyone, which is the height of irony because the bolded example states that we musn't do exactly what she is doing.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by athribiristan

But you yourself have said many times that we can never know truth with certainty, that all we have to go on is our perception of truth, that being our beliefs about what is true. So what you are really saying is that this is a case where one belief about what is true and another belief about what is true intersect.

LOL. Well, there are certain assumptions that we make to form working models of reality, including what we consider "truth." So this is all in the framework of the assumption that there is an objective truth that applies to everyone outside of the context of personal subjective experience. In other words, there is reality, and then there is what we believe reality to be. This is relative, of course, but this seems to be the most practical and useful way of approaching these issues.

According to the except, who gets to define 'correct' understanding? We think we understand truth and then a person falls 13,000 feet and lives. Was his understanding of truth incorrect just because by everyone else's definition he should have died? You cannot say what is true, you can only say what is true for you. By virtue of that we cannot say what is true for another person, only they can.

The correct understanding is that which is in alignment with the definitions and concepts that best represent the true nature of reality. Belief means one thing, truth means another thing. Elephant means one thing, monkey means another thing. You cannot say belief is the same thing as truth just as you cannot say that elephant means the same thing as monkey. You can make correlations and try to connect them, but at the end of the day they are very different things.

SO:

"So it's true that each of you have a different belief about my wearing Aubergine, but there is the fact of my wearing Aubergine in addition to your beliefs about it. At least that's what we usually think truth is. I mean, as you've seen, there are big questions about whether that's true. But what we shouldn't do is say "truth is something different for each of us, when actually all we mean is that "our beliefs are different, each of us have different beliefs.""

This is a belief about truth.

And again, it is a belief that represents truth relative to the definitions that are being used.

Do you see that's confusing, claims about peoples beliefs or understanding or knowledge from claims about how the world is. You cannot go from "each of us believes something different about truth" to "truth is different for each of us." And in the same way you can't go from, "Fred believes P," to "therefore P is true for Fred and anyone else who believes P," because all it means is "Fred believes it." So it's very easy to confuse metaphysics from epistemology."

And this is the blanket application of that belief to everyone, which is the height of irony because the bolded example states that we musn't do exactly what she is doing.

As I have explained, her statement is true relative and defined by the system of language being used.

[Eskay]

Originally Posted by athribiristan
[COLOR="Red"

And this is the blanket application of that belief to everyone, which is the height of irony because the bolded example states that we musn't do exactly what she is doing.[/color]

All I'm doing is stating the facts of our present, which we all happen to share. I mean you don't have to believe your on "Earth" or your true self is inside of a human body. I KNOW the Truth about myself, its not a belief. My belief is that we all should let go of our thoughts and emotions, and balance the energy that we can control in us.

Also, I'm a man!

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Eskay

Also, I'm a man!

Whoops... you give off feminine energy... hope that's not insulting...