What I believe full enlightenment is

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi daz,

Final reiteration of my main points, fwiw:

The "nature of Bliss" is not exclusive of God's Will, nor is it necessarily indicative of a withdrawal and separation from life , but rather the transformation of that life in the individual being.... meaning the becoming of a dynamic truth-conscious oneness with and AS all.
This includes:

God's Will which may (and does) include death (as is obvious in Life).

Consciousness is not destroyed by death. All being (static or dynamic) is in, of, and as God, e.g., self-existent, infinite and eternal. that is why.......because nothing really dies in that SELF. That Bliss is present in any status, including 'death' which really isn't!

In the physical, destruction is part of that creative process...and why everyone who is born must inevitably die, unless and until they transcend that necessity of death which means they have consciously become Truth, Love, Bliss, etc., but also significantly have become the Divine Will which may require the destruction of transitive FORM* in order to effect an evolutionary purpose (as we see in the physical as a generic process).

I am suggesting that equivocating Bliss, etc. as a moral issue is missing this point because God's Will is operative at a higher level, and ultimately its purpose seeks the transcendence of ignorance as in the necessity to transform persistent forms of ignorance that are impeding human progress and may or must be addressed if necessary per that Will/Vision.

Those may be specific cases of physical death /war, but also the main issue is the microcosmic metaphor of destroying/transcending ignorance/ego in oneself (yoga) which obviates the need for war and its trauma, etc., because the ignorance is mitigated in that case before becoming institutionalized in the 'body' of humanity, the collective human 'being'.

This is ultimately not a moral issue, - e.g., "it is wrong to kill.", which was Arjuna's argument in the Gita, otherwise we'd all be Nazis or enslaved by them by now. Same for the American Civil War., Etc.

*which is also essentially an infinite self-existent and eternal consciousness in a particular status

~ J

With due respect it’s like you’re a bird explaining to a fish below ground what things are like.

As accurate as you are, and as eloquent and as beautiful your words are spoken from true experience and genuine spiritual depth, I now understand why many teachers don’t even bother talking to people who are not genuinely interested in Truth - but are only interested in affirming their own theoretical concepts. Present company included.

Namaste,

JL

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by running

i know the spiritual theme is compassion. compassion. compassion.

so heres mine. being oneself in the bliss is the most compassionate thing one can do. it could allow others to be able to accept themselves as they are in their kundalini process. opening doors to bliss and silence.

bliss and silence are the peacemakers. not the mind.

that's how i see it. i really do have my faith on god love. not the minds of people.

The compassion won't touch others if it's not lived through actions.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

So, it seems clear that when folks murder or mass murder, etc., they are not fully present in authentic love. Whether feeling bliss or not.
This is why our individuated, quantum-level consciousness is equally sacred and of worth. We must be fully present in ourselves, fully grounded in our incarnated individuated consciousness, to bring our quantum, individuated capacity to love personally to each moment..as well as our "long-term" task to expand ourselves to loving (impersonally) all that is. The quantum speck of consciousness (us) is equally of value to Oneness -- Source is not whole without us. Our interbeing in personal and impersonal love, both, is critical to existence, to us, and to All that Is.

Hey Amanda 7

Yes, it is about being fully present. That's why the genuine cross-legged blissed out guru type is so absorbed within Self Love, that there is no irritation of the fly that has landed on his nose lol .

I spoke to you about the initiates of the masters that have been watching me and some are what we would call blood thirsty dictator and rulers and this might seem odd to some to entertain the thought that high level beings are and have created mass destruction.

This is out of love but it's not aligned with what you are that is Love.

This is the huge fat difference and it's the only real point I have been making all along.

Even the stories in the scriptures talking about God's will for people to die are not aligned with Love that is what they are.

They are involved with karmic duties. They are involved with mind and self reflections.

It's easy to say God's will is beyond right and wrong, but why is the sacred cow not slaughtered?

Why is it that princess diana was sacrificed and not joe bloggs who lives down the street?

If there is a reason for why one must kill and be killed, then there is a structure in place that makes perfect sense and is not above reason, so on one hand like said it's easy to put God's will and God's Love into a neutral position but it's not so neutral when there is only one course of action available.

This is what I was trying to say to J about killing another while executing (excuse the pun) God's will.

These 'doing's' are secondary to the bliss or the Love that I am speaking about ..

It's no Good speaking about Bliss and being saturated in God's Love while carrying out secondary duties / actions.

All these secondary actions are mindful of a purpose. When you are blissfully emanating God's Love and the bliss and Joy of what you are there doesn't have to be any killing going on all though there could well be a purpose for one shinning their light equally the same as the one that tries to extinguish it.

There's the difference, being what you are and simply emanating that direct light. One has not got to do anything so to speak. One is simply being the love and the bliss of what they are. No action is needed. No irritation is expressed.

This is why I don't relate to the Bliss and the love in ways where peeps have a day of raging at the world and the peeps in it while declaring permanence of Love and Bliss .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Gods love or the ultimate pure being, has no judgement, no attachments, but simply the joy in being. It illuminates clarity of being. There are no thoughts about what one is being.

Bingo!!

This is what I have been speaking about.

The moment one associated a self reflection with the will of God in order to kill another life form is the moment one is not in a permanent Blissful Loving state of Self awareness.

All these divine missions of ascended masters are karmically charged.

Where there is karma there is reason, there is balance and there is judgement.

All these energies are not directly associated with the Bliss and the Joy and the Love of Self.


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi daz,

Final reiteration of my main points, fwiw:

The "nature of Bliss" is not exclusive of God's Will, nor is it necessarily indicative of a withdrawal and separation from life , but rather the transformation of that life in the individual being.... meaning the becoming of a dynamic truth-conscious oneness with and AS all.
This includes:

God's Will which may (and does) include death (as is obvious in Life).

Consciousness is not destroyed by death. All being (static or dynamic) is in, of, and as God, e.g., self-existent, infinite and eternal. that is why.......because nothing really dies in that SELF. That Bliss is present in any status, including 'death' which really isn't!

In the physical, destruction is part of that creative process...and why everyone who is born must inevitably die, unless and until they transcend that necessity of death which means they have consciously become Truth, Love, Bliss, etc., but also significantly have become the Divine Will which may require the destruction of transitive FORM* in order to effect an evolutionary purpose (as we see in the physical as a generic process).

I am suggesting that equivocating Bliss, etc. as a moral issue is missing this point because God's Will is operative at a higher level, and ultimately its purpose seeks the transcendence of ignorance as in the necessity to transform persistent forms of ignorance that are impeding human progress and may or must be addressed if necessary per that Will/Vision.

Those may be specific cases of physical death /war, but also the main issue is the microcosmic metaphor of destroying/transcending ignorance/ego in oneself (yoga) which obviates the need for war and its trauma, etc., because the ignorance is mitigated in that case before becoming institutionalized in the 'body' of humanity, the collective human 'being'.

This is ultimately not a moral issue, - e.g., "it is wrong to kill.", which was Arjuna's argument in the Gita, otherwise we'd all be Nazis or enslaved by them by now. Same for the American Civil War., Etc.

*which is also essentially an infinite self-existent and eternal consciousness in a particular status

~ J

Hey J

We seem to differ here and that's okay. The Love and the bliss of what you are that I am talking about has no thought of what killing other's is. There is no thought of self or other's. There are no missions being planned to bring suffering to the world for the greater good of humanity. The world doesn't exist. There is simply the Love of what you are present that is beyond all of this.

When an individual that is of the mind that is consumed with this Love and Bliss there again is no thought of killing other's. There is as said before many levels to this, such levels involve not being able to function or self relate, let alone getting on a horse and chopping someone's head off.

I have touched upon this in other posts this morning about judgements and reasoning and karma all which involve a structure of a kind. We can call it a divine structure, or a higher structure, but it isn't above reasoning, it's not above what is right or wrong otherwise there would be unorganised chaos.

If you have a divine plan to wipe out millions of people or if you have a plan to wipe out the dictator it will be because of reason.

None of these reasons have a part to play in the love of what you are that is beyond reason.

There is a big difference in being what you are that is love beyond mind and beyond reason and identifying with self and a mission.

We can agree to disagree with my thoughts on this for sure...


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Clearly. And that is not what I am speaking of either. As I have said, I think 'bliss' has been been overrated and oversold as a value or soul-'goal'. Here's something from my treatise which I think 'converges' with what you are saying despite the above-referenced disagreement:

To the degree that one has done that, in other words to the degree that one**has, as the apostle Paul put it, “put off the old man*…*and put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him”*(Colossians*3:9-10), one naturally (quite logically) assigns secondary status to one’s own as well as others’ physiosocial desire-n-aversion based impulses and (so) chooses not to ‘act’ on them if and when doing so would detract from or sully possibilities for optimal and incremental experience and expression of Love and Joy in said talked about earlier in the treatise] self-transcendental, all‑inclusive sense. One therefore (also quite logically) naturally becomes more environ*mentally responsible and pragmatically ethical, more conscientiously self‑disciplined (i.e. less shortsightedly self and/or other-self ‘indulgent’) in*relation to every aspect of The Flow of Life one becomes aware of.

Such kind of psychospiritual development results in one’s acting to salutarily enhance the creative functionality of whoever or whatever one may singularly or plurally be relationally involved with, which of course means doing whatever one can to help as well as assistively support others who help to protect those that are vulnerable, heal those that are sick or injured, nurture those who are immature and educate those who are unaware of the nature and extent of their connection to and with others in context of Life’s Matrixial Flow. There may therefore indeed be times and circumstances when and where desisting from seeking as well as foregoing available pleasures, comforts, gains, etc. and risking as well as voluntarily accepting consequent stresses, pains, losses, etc., even to the point of incurring significant physiosocial liabilities, is what one thinks and feels is the most Love and Joy augmenting choice one can make, and therefore elects to do with such goals in mind and heart. What devoted parents, friends, teachers, care-providers and public servants of all kinds often do as a matter of course provides exemplary illustration in this regard.

No worries, I think there are a lot of cross wires going on lol. I think there are relatively few that even agree with the actual definition of Love and Bliss that I am referring too.

I have been consistent in my definition and your whale analogy just seemed miles apart from what I am and was talking about that's all.

I would say there is a stream of thought in your treatise that reflects in part what I am saying, especially when you said 'one naturally becomes more environ*mentally responsible and pragmatically ethical, more conscientiously self‑disciplined (i.e. less shortsightedly self and/or other-self ‘indulgent’) in*relation to every aspect of The Flow of Life one becomes aware of''.

The Love and Joy that reflects oneness and sameness in that all is what you are automatically reflects in a loving nature towards all things.

This is where self and Self reflection comes to the fore.

The missions had of mass destruction and killing other's do not have this same reflection or energy present.

This is one of the main points i am making.

The Loving, Self, and the Bliss is not present. There is no permanence of alignment through the heart in these moments.

As discussed and agreed with 7l and J there is not the full picture had, there is not the Self awareness had, there is no conscious memory of why these missions are in place.

The actual Self awareness is key because our behaviour mirrors our Self reflection.


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

not taking anything personal. or have taken anything personal. you and some others see the world improving by the means you speak about. i see it by the love of god. where then all the things aren't experienced so harsh. but smothered in joy. change in the things that concern you i see happening naturally. and what doesnt like i said not experienced in the same way.

just so u know im not some crazy person running around causing problems. not that i think you do. if u do thats ok. people always seem to want me around so on. but like i said i just have a different faith.

and thank u for sharing your thoughts

Hahaha...hey there running.

A little insurrection and a little countercultural input are both absolutely vital for balance and progress and accountability...and if we fall into either of those buckets we are all counted as mad so you are in good company. As long as we keep our feet on the ground whilst our heads are in the clouds.

I don't see the love of the individual fingers of God (us) and the love of God as being separate, so I don't see it as an either/or thing as you are describing it...me one way, you another.

I see it as BOTH/AND -- never either/or -- because I apprehend deeply that all of it is needed to be whole...to be Whole.

But I will often speak to whatever side seems underrepresented or misunderstood most greatly at any given time.

And thanks for sharing your thoughts too.
Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by JustBe

People will always defend, present, believe in the path they themselves are walking through. Yet as the whole shared uniqueness of each and every life immersed as one, people forget that it can only be about their path as their path is.

Until you fully understand your true nature, liberated beyond what one should or should not be doing and being, it will not understand and accept all paths and life as it is. Their is no conflict in the true self being itself as everything it’s path opens up too. Is aware and functioning from.

Gods love or the ultimate pure being, has no judgement, no attachments, but simply the joy in being. It illuminates clarity of being. There are no thoughts about what one is being.

It can only lead as itself. To believe others and the world they reside in as they are.

Yes I understand where your coming from.

Illumination is not about any label, it’s simply the light of being, alighted to its own being. It’s own true state and uniqueness. It’s own Unique path.

We can believe that what we are gaining through our own reconciliation of our own separation from the true self is what everyone is gaining and will get.

One can only lead as they are for themselves.

If someone professed to me they are in permenant bliss and I saw them swat a fly- the lesson becomes, how do I feel, how do I react, how do I see all this and am I moved by this in ways it opens me, supports me as my model of being, that I am for the betterment of life.

These scenarios are opportunities to see yourself. These enquiries of what others are suggesting they are and are doing are about your own being.

Hey there JustBe,

For certain, there are many paths to love, to union, to oneness...and most agree ;) that authentic love (lovingkindness and equanimity) and ananda (sublime joy of being) attend this awakening when we choose to live consciously from centre.

Most would also agree no one way to source and centre and right-alignment is above another, and I have not heard anyone reasonably claim that this is the case nor that they or their thoughts were above any other. Is this what you have experienced? If so, that is a shame and IMO is not in keeping with the lines of discussion we've been having here.

You mention judgment again and once again, it's in a pejorative way. It's too bad that at this time in humanity, that experience is still all too common for most of us at various times and places.

Yet right-aligned judgment is wise discernment, and that is a good and beautiful thing. Wise discernment is foundational...it is necessary for walking our path consciously. Likewise, misplaced judgment (lacking wisdom and discernment) is generally misaligned. We tend not to perceive it as misaligned when it favours us but when it is unjust toward us (in its misalignment), then we do notice.

We are sentient sacred beings, so there is no resolution or remedy for misaligned judgment save right-aligned, wise discernment in authentic love. Aside from lobotomies or 24/7 mind control/drugs/ecstasy, etc.

Thus, I also think it is wise to disclaim that when you say with enlightenment there is only joy and no thoughts, no discernment...as if what we are in this way is separate from our being, or from being here now and being love now...

...then IMO you should also fully disclaim that this is not the truth of enlightenment, full stop. Rather, it is the truth of enlightenment for you regarding where you are or want to be at this moment. This is your idea of enlightenment at this moment, and that is all good -- but it does not and will not fully agree with the experience of many others who have experienced illumination in just those areas of wisdom and discernment as among the fruits of enlightenment.

As you note, everyone is where they are and it's all good so long as we acknowledge that our experience does reflect just that, where we are on the journey. Even still, with some discussion, it is readily apparent to most that we can and do gain deeply with these insights from one another and where we each are on our paths. In this way, we can better support ourselves and one another as we go

Peace & blessings
7L

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I see it as BOTH/AND -- never either/or -- because I apprehend deeply that all of it is needed to be whole...to be Whole.

But I will often speak to whatever side seems underrepresented or misunderstood most greatly at any given time.

Much appreciated!

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey Amanda 7

Yes, it is about being fully present. That's why the genuine cross-legged blissed out guru type is so absorbed within Self Love, that there is no irritation of the fly that has landed on his nose lol .

Hey Dazza back atcha --
Agreed...OR else the guru is not detached in ecstatic bliss but is experiencing sublime bliss, the sublime joy of being; he is in total centred, serene awareness; and so he instead takes the conscious decision not to not swat the fly. (The "other" other C word, aside from commitment to our journey).

I spoke to you about the initiates of the masters that have been watching me and some are what we would call blood thirsty dictator and rulers and this might seem odd to some to entertain the thought that high level beings are and have created mass destruction.

They are watching you because you have moved past this stage of violence as a soul and into a place of love and healing...and they look to you as a different sort of being because in fact you are now...as we all are, once we have moved past this. For certain...they have nothing to show you...it's you who are the lesson for them.

This is out of love but it's not aligned with what you are that is Love.

This is the huge fat difference and it's the only real point I have been making all along.

Agreed...it's a good point because until we take personal responsibility for our paths, we are ultimately amoral, supporting amorality and a belief set in an amoral God/Source/Universe.

My mystical tradition and everything I have personally experienced both directly counter this "amoral Source" fundamentally. With authentic love, we connect to and are right-aligned with God and universe, with self and one another. And the ultimately misdirected and sterile belief in an amoral God/Source/Universe is replaced with one of interbeing with All that Is, in authentic love.

Even the stories in the scriptures talking about God's will for people to die are not aligned with Love that is what they are.

They are involved with karmic duties. They are involved with mind and self reflections.

Yes those earliest stories were about following the warrior prophet's orders to survive the day against hostile tribes, etc.

But as spiritual awareness and understanding grew, even way back in hostile and uncertain times, the prophets called for peace among nations and for inner struggles and social struggles as the real battlegrounds. The struggle to know and do truth, goodness, beauty, and justice...based on the love of God as understood, discussed, codified, and manifested in the lives of men and women.

It's easy to say God's will is beyond right and wrong, but why is the sacred cow not slaughtered?

Why is it that princess diana was sacrificed and not joe bloggs who lives down the street?

If there is a reason for why one must kill and be killed, then there is a structure in place that makes perfect sense and is not above reason, so on one hand like said it's easy to put God's will and God's Love into a neutral position but it's not so neutral when there is only one course of action available.

Yes...that's coz it's not just about God's will with no input or engagement from us and other sentient beings in the universe.

The "God's will" view is an understanding of what is which neglects the mystery of What Is...which is the interbeing of One with each of us and all of us, in union. Where we may direct connect our hearts to the heart of One in authentic love and union -- in both lovingkindness and awe.

If we rise to ownership of our journey and live from centre, awakened mind in service to awakened heart, then direct access to the heart of God becomes present with our presence in love -- i.e., our authentic love for others and for All that Is. Kabbalists refer this as accessing Isaac's secret chamber or riding the chariot (merkabah), but in reality, this is simply how we come to live when we begin walking our path consciously from centre in authentic love.

This is what I was trying to say to J about killing another while executing (excuse the pun) God's will.

These 'doing's' are secondary to the bliss or the Love that I am speaking about ..

It's no Good speaking about Bliss and being saturated in God's Love while carrying out secondary duties / actions.

Yes agreed. To me, it's a simple lack of integrity that humanity are prone to have, due to all our iniquities. The only thing for it is honest self-reflection. Nothing is automatic, particularly your spiritual growth, as what on earth would be the purpose of that, eh? Growth without awareness and conscious choice is simply not possible beyond a certain point, and most of humanity has already reached that point or even long since. I say this because this place on the journey is where the beauty and the joy begin to really intensify...it's amazing and so wonderful to feel so many are reaching this place at last, this place of ownership and conscious choice.

In fact, our ability to choose and to be present for ourselves, for one another, and for our journeys, is such an immeasurable gift.

All these secondary actions are mindful of a purpose. When you are blissfully emanating God's Love and the bliss and Joy of what you are there doesn't have to be any killing going on all though there could well be a purpose for one shinning their light equally the same as the one that tries to extinguish it.

There's the difference, being what you are and simply emanating that direct light. One has not got to do anything so to speak. One is simply being the love and the bliss of what they are. No action is needed. No irritation is expressed.

This is why I don't relate to the Bliss and the love in ways where peeps have a day of raging at the world and the peeps in it while declaring permanence of Love and Bliss .

x daz x

Hahaha...yes, but at least that reflects our true nature, which is individuated consciousness, unique, divine, and eternal. A nature which can only be balanced and right-aligned through both illumination (grace) and conscious choices (ownership), day by day.

Re: anger -- it's sometimes just rage as you note -- and that is often misaligned and harmful. Agree it does not co-exist with sublime joy easily...it would be generally incompatible even if due to real and great suffering. But it's sometimes righteous anger, meaning it's concerning injustices. And because injustices exist, IMO we are right to be engaged and concerned for others, due to our interbeing with all others. IMO, the sublime bliss or joy or being does not (and should not) ever override our engagement with the suffering of others, and this may include righteous anger due to the injustices we put upon one another. Because ideally we are present to all we are, singly and in interbeing -- and we don't want to lose any of that experience, nor deny it or detach from it...because all we are and all we experience in each moment is precious and to be treasured. That IS the sublime joy of being

I myself will confess (LOL) to laying responsibility for injustices and corruption on our government and economy, and on exploitative societal institutions as well, for undermining everyone and setting enormous, traumatic obstacles in everyone's paths, variously. I don't really do this too much regarding individuals per se unless abusing power but that too accrues to institutional lack. But I will also say that I know we are the solution to our problems on that level...WITH the assistance and support of one another, of Source and of our guides.

As now is not the time for misplaced pride on those items, LOL, and thinking any one of us has the answers...but rather for humility and communion for a common purpose of sustainable survival and the care of Gaia and all She supports. I.e., working communally and also accepting direct insight from Source and guides given to us in great love for our highest good.

I agree re: shining their light...who's to say what any one of us can do or contribute, if properly supported and guided by all the rest. The sky is the limit, and it's humanity that holds humanity back, or sets itself free.

Peace & blessings
7L