Relating to the opposite sex

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by Akira

Hey there
This is really interesting to me, because most of my mates are the opposite gender to me. We're great friends and there isn't really any underlying oddness between us. I am not even sure there is an undercurrent. I have known most of these folks for years and years now and we're like family. To be honest I prefer these relationships and my own gender don't seem to like me that much in truth. There's always a competitive edge which doesn't happen in the different gender dynamic.

Sexual undercurrent isn't there for me either, it might be for them. Guess it depends, I dunno our relationships are what they are. Maybe the sexual undercurrent is there because you're not friends (as in you see something more in one another)?

As I say there is none of this with my mates - no sexual anything, just great friends who I get to laugh with and share with. Plus I don't really have to be anything, they just take me as I am.

That's my take on it

I do hear where you're coming from, actually, I suppose as with most things it's highly subjective and it gets me to wondering to what extent I'm projecting. I was probably more conscious of a sexual undercurrent when I was younger and less comfortable in my own skin (I'm still not entirely comfortable in it, but I'm much better than I was), which again is maybe more a reflection of how I related to my own sexuality as much as anything. As I say, I do think it becomes much less of an issue when there's an emotional connection - when I've had that with the women I've been especially close to sex has never been an issue, because first and foremost there was a loving bond and a mutual respect. Meaningless sex was never something that particularly appealed to me (I mean obviously I'm a bloke so it did have a certain appeal, if I'm being honest, but deep down it always felt kinda hollow - I always yearned for something more than that).

I think there's something to what you said in seeing more in one another than just friendship, I do get that feeling with the female friend I mentioned because there's always been a mutual attraction that was never realised sexually (it's a really complicated situation, and it pits my brain against my genitals, quite frankly - my fearful mind has won out thus far, more's the pity ). Anyway, I find it warming that it is possible to have a loving relationship with a woman (and vice versa) without the need for sex :)

[dream jo]

yes thy can e frinds thy can

[jro5139]

Not sure I should answer this because not sure I can without offending every man that reads it...
I'm really not trying to man- bash but in my experience, no, because men always want the sexual aspect, and when they realize they aren't going to get it, they get angry and leave. Some even try to say they want friendship and that's ok, still the saga always ends the same.
At this age (old), I would rather my relationships start with friendship, but I don't meet men who are willing to do that. So you either have to jump into bed with them right away, or they are gone. It's an all or nothing situation.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by dream jo

yes thy can e frinds thy can

I agree

Originally Posted by jro5139

Not sure I should answer this because not sure I can without offending every man that reads it...
I'm really not trying to man- bash but in my experience, no, because men always want the sexual aspect, and when they realize they aren't going to get it, they get angry and leave. Some even try to say they want friendship and that's ok, still the saga always ends the same.
At this age (old), I would rather my relationships start with friendship, but I don't meet men who are willing to do that. So you either have to jump into bed with them right away, or they are gone. It's an all or nothing situation.

Oh I don't think it's man-bashing at all, and I'm not offended - sadly I think what you're saying is applicable to at least a fair majority of men, myself included. In myself I experience this as, at root, simply a desire for intimacy; I think this desire becomes sexually fixated in lieu of an authentic emotional connection, because vulnerability is still an issue for me and there's still a fear of expressing what I'm really feeling because I learnt in childhood that it wasn't ok to do so - though this is something that's in the process of changing, I feel.

At this stage I'm very much on the same page as you as far as desiring that relationships begin with friendship, my two closest relationships began that way. I loved these women as people, first and foremost, I loved their warmth, intelligence, humour, eccentricities, insecurities, etc., and actually I think sex only ended up clouding the issue.

[jro5139]

Originally Posted by A human Being

I experience this as, at root, simply a desire for intimacy; I think this desire becomes sexually fixated in lieu of an authentic emotional connection,

^^This is it. This is where I feel the issue is, and the majority of people (men and woman) don't understand that what they really want/need is emotional connection. So they chase physical and wonder why they are continuously not satisfied. We mistake it for physical because that is what we are taught we need, and we are not taught about emotional connections.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by jro5139

^^This is it. This is where I feel the issue is, and the majority of people (men and woman) don't understand that what they really want/need is emotional connection. So they chase physical and wonder why they are continuously not satisfied. We mistake it for physical because that is what we are taught we need, and we are not taught about emotional connections.

So true. I think most of us do yearn for emotional connection, without actually being conscious of the fact. And the lack of that connection is a big part of why there's so much mental illness in the world, I feel.

It's heart-breaking...

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by A human Being

So true. I think most of us do yearn for emotional connection, without actually being conscious of the fact. And the lack of that connection is a big part of why there's so much mental illness in the world, I feel.

It's heart-breaking...

Hello there HB
So...btw spot on here and in your last, and same to JRo...

Now we've got clear on the problem, it's time to do the hard work.
Get clean, own your own game, and begin to relate to people authentically.
And yes, that absolutely means steering clear of those women who also seek to relate to you sexually and manipulatively without taking time to get to know and love YOU first and foremost simply as a person and as a beloved friend. Full stop. And you, the same toward them.

If you have to educate someone on this, then they are not there yet and will not resonate with you in a healthy and sustainable way, neither as a deep and true beloved friend nor certainly as an authentically loving partner -- because they above all should already be a beloved friend who seeks your highest good, full stop.

No excuses...just get clean and get real. And then we can begin to understand the beauty of what authentic love is and does...and of the authentic love we are, once we begin to align ourselves with our centres and live there, day to day. In intent, thought, word, and deed.

Nothing real and true and good is superficial and fast and on demand. That's arranged or coerced. Authentic love is simply manifesting who we are at core, with all obstructions and obfuscations transmuted and essentially thus removed.

I hate to say it, but I see that many women today -- I can't say it's 1 of 2 but maybe it is these days -- cannot be the sole source of the solution till they've had kids or passed on that. And have thus begun to more fully come into their spiritual maturity.

Mainly because more than a few generations of women now have already come to be under the mantra of degraded materialism and utilitarianism and (at best mutual) exploitation of others. Most women have truthfully suffered a great deal of spiritual and emotional trauma under this caustic, exploitative system they've been misdirected to participate in, in order to somehow obtain family and partnership.

Many women thus lack the social support, the leverage, and even a basic level of self-worth as women (having been traumatised and devalued) till they've had kids to even begin to cope with finding dignity amidst the degraded culture in which they find themselves, and with men still dominant in society in nearly all areas. And with essentially zero authentic love between men and women, either historically to date or over the last several generations.

Men on the other hand, have also been severely misdirected and are now frequently highly addicted to both casual sex and to violent, degrading porn. With so many being addicts at various points along the spectrum (I hate to say), and having the majority power in society to use and degrade others at will -- you might think men are also not a likely source of any solution.

But nonetheless, women are trying to reproduce and raise the next gen, and they are severely disadvantaged in most areas relative to men. So most men are going to have to wean themselves of porn and sex addictions, either when they're younger and freer to indulge their addictions, or when they're older but unfortunately have often not had any real practice in the building of discipline and restraint and spiritual fortitude in this area.

Gents over 25 or 30...and especially over 40...they're going to have to try to overcome the self-absorption, the years of sexual and porn addiction, and the years increasing amounts of dumpster-diving to find the remnant dregs of womankind who are bent and broken enough to still act 20 at 40...

...and over 35 or 40s gents will generally have to work much harder to overcome the inertia and rigidity of the spirit when they're a bit older and they've been misdirected, and have freely and deeply indulged in the misdirection, for many years now.

Clearly, any women still engaging in manipulative and needy behaviours (relating to men sexually without taking time to know and love one another authentically, using sex to manipulate or as a weapon, without engaging emotionally and spiritually and without asking for real engagement from men) also has a lot of work to do regarding loving the self AND respecting others...and if a man wants to get clean and be the love he is with others, giving and receiving, he'll have to avoid these women who seek to exploit his addictions for their own equally narcissistic ends. Whilst he finds himself with the support of authentically loving friends, fam, etc. And whilst those bent or broken ladies do the same.

When men -- who have been so badly damaged spiritually by modern society toxic paradigm -- heal and have both the capacity and the desire to meet women from a place of authentic love, first and foremost as people and as beloved friends, they'll clearly be able to see the difference. It's going to be very hard for a lot of men till they find their firm feet, because of the pervasive nature of addiction and the narcissism it tends to breed. Women and other men all need to support men and not exploit their vulnerabilities here.

Women too have suffered and we too need men not to manipulate and deceive us, nor to touch us intimately without authenticity of love and presence. We too need the support of men and of other women. Most women do not continue to live in this place of desperation (or manipulation) once they've had kids or otherwise reached their spiritual maturity. However, there are currently plenty of emotionally and spiritually mature women who have gained their leverage and their centre and who know who they are. Even in this degraded culture. They do understand and they relate to others from a place of authenticity and lovingkindness.

But the average man who is sexually addicted to porn and casual sex (meaning relationships must primarily be based on sex and sex takes primacy up front, regardless of deeply knowing and loving the other)...the man addicted to sex and porn will not have the heart space or mental space to get to know another authentically as a person and as a friend. He is not interested in healthy women and authentic love, because he's looking for his quick fix and he doesn't have anything to spare emotionally to give out in return. Primarily it is a relationship of constantly being robbed and taken from, when you deal with an addict. The addict has to use others and he has to get or take what he needs for his fix. True friendship or partnership in authentic love is not yet possible for the addict. First, he has to get clean and stop cruising and dumpster-diving for fixes, whether short term or long term.

And likewise when those damaged women who have continued to participate in this toxic paradigm, particularly after the first blush of innocence...they to are addicted, as the codependent is addicted to enabling the addict by supplying him his fix and accommodating him. Yet women are not physically addicted in the same way as men, and thus there is an innate core which for most women remains uncorrupted by their participation in this toxic paradigm. This is a woman's spiritual gift or grace that should never be underestimated...yet should not be so callously and thoroughly exploited, either.

Thus, when these women too step away from this same toxic mainstream paradigm, so many come to see basically overnight (so to speak) that they have worth and value. And that no one should have to cross that deep and sacred divide between kissing and embracing, and full-on sex and intercourse, without a freely given, mutual commitment in authentic love for one another.

Let's all be on our way now, shall we?
In authentic love and fellowship, one and all

Peace & blessings,
7L

Originally Posted by jro5139

Not sure I should answer this because not sure I can without offending every man that reads it...
I'm really not trying to man- bash but in my experience, no, because men always want the sexual aspect, and when they realize they aren't going to get it, they get angry and leave. Some even try to say they want friendship and that's ok, still the saga always ends the same.
At this age (old), I would rather my relationships start with friendship, but I don't meet men who are willing to do that. So you either have to jump into bed with them right away, or they are gone. It's an all or nothing situation.

Well, my response might just be as offensive.

There's an ultimate reason behind Nature providing two genders - it happens throughout most organic species be they the birds and the bees, flowers, people.

Most women do themselves up to "be attractive" with all kinds of devices from false hair colours and styles, cosmetics, body-shaping garments (which include heels to assist one presenting a nice bum).

So they attract. In the Natural order, they attract men and Nature's ultimate aim is to propagate the species giving a nice statistical spread to enhance the species chance of survival.

For good administrative reasons, consensus codifies this into longer relationships. One night stands exist rather as an aberration. Likewise Victorians didn't talk about prostitution even through they knew it existed. The aim is to create a family for which originally various parental roles were established. Anything outside marriage was frowned upon.

Religions turned sex into a taboo. And this is why its raison d'etre is still so poorly understood. In an age like now when we need education and understanding, censorship and taboo is the last thing we want.

So what seems to have happened is people now wrap this simple and natural act in all manner of spiritual claptrap - because their yearnings don't match what they're allowed to do.

With such understanding it's perfectly possible for males and females just to be friends because they have a measure of their emotions and social expectation.

As I see it. I accept that twin flaming might exist between people who genuinely follow that particular religion (because it is a religion, like it or not, with "the universe" being its god). But for most girl-meets-boy encounters, spirituality is not needed because it's inherent in Nature anyway.

It's a bit like the current "sex scandals". If women really don't want to attract men sexually a good start would be to stop making themselves up to be sexually attractive. In Chairman Mao's day, both genders wore the same dun fatigues most of the time, no cosmetics.

Such are my views and I hope I'm right because I have a few male just-friends! (Even if I don't wear dun fatigues.) I work with men from time to time.
There's flirting, sure, but it's part of the repartee, not wishful thinking.

[7luminaries]

Lorelyen, I for one don't think your answer is at all offensive, and I'm glad you speak your mind I'm jumping in to offer a few words but in no way to interrupt your response to Jro. I don't mean to interfere with that conversation at all.

though I may agree in part with what you're saying, I see things differently in other ways. I do think some men are ok with being your friend, particularly at work or in a group set aside for some other purpose, but as a whole, there are very few deep, long-term, agape-based personal friendships between adult, non-familial men and women.

Eating, drinking, and excreting are natural too, and require no one else. These in fact (plus shelter) are all that is required for any one person to survive. However we don't just eat or drink anything. And we don't relieve ourselves just anywhere or in any way. We have huge cultural overlays that shape our behaviour and thoughts for even these most basic and required natural urges to eat, drink, and excrete. Totally nothing to do with any religion for many.

So we can hardly think that sex, which involves another person and is not required for your personal survival, would be any different. The simple fact is we're not purely animal. We are suffused with spirit and sentience, and if we seek to deny or negate that, we are neither fully human nor even the innocent beast.

We will always require a balance, an integration, a suffusion of spirit and temple in which the mystery of the whole cannot be found in any sum of the parts. And IMO, instead of fighting to rip ourselves apart and seek the impossible (to be an innocent beast), we are far better off embracing our humanity and living in this place of illuminated union of the self.

From there, we can relate to one another from a place of authentic love and mutual regard and respect. Ideally, this is the place we'd already be, when considering intimacy and partnership.

But I also hear something else in what you're saying, which is that it's never been this way (partnership was arranged and/or coerced historically) and it's still not this way yet today. We've not yet found our way. We have this archaic paradigm of yesteryear and now we have total amorality and misdirection at the cultural level as the "modern alternative".

Thus many don't yet know how to live from a place of integrity within themselves (without a rigidly imposed archaic paradigm), nor do they understand the implications of choosing to live from a place of integrity regarding intimacy, sex, and partnership.

Instead, if not following old oppressive strictures, many will rely now on the usual motley assortment of power, control, manipulation, physicality, urges, and ego needs (the normative, mainstream guidance). Equally oppressive in many ways, and perhaps vastly more insidious.

And yet we find ourselves at this juncture...moving beyond the old ways but for many now without any direction, vision, or heart. There is no historic map nor any solutions to be found in the harsh, tired oppression of patriarchy, religious orthodoxy and power-over structures more broadly. And yet there is no ready map or cultural reference point in our amoral, utilitarian modern society either.

There is however a great opportunity at this juncture to go where humanity have not ever gone before. It's for us to forge a new path for humanity, one of authentic love in being and doing (i.e., made manifest). For ourselves, for others, and for all that is.

Peace & blessings
7L

[A human Being]

Thoughtful and well-articulated responses as always, 7L, and as usual I agree with pretty much everything you said :) Particularly with regards to authenticity (I was toying with the idea of starting a thread on the subject, funnily enough) - that really is the key to it all, I think, and the key to that is to acknowledge what's actually going on inside us. Sounds simple enough in theory, but in practice we tend to be in resistance to strong emotions, certain thought patterns, and what have you, so it does require humility, a sincere commitment to self-honesty, and a willingness to allow ourselves to feel discomfort and emotional pain. It can be a real challenge and can call for a lot of soul-searching, but I don't think we can have truly meaningful and fulfilling relationships without doing the inner work and without being willing to be vulnerable with others.