Is nirvana the end of journey?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Baile

Someone needs to catalog all the variations of the practically-identical doctrine ...

Reaching nirvana is the same as self-enlightenment, is the same as higher self, is the same as Holy Spirit,
is the same as... etc. And yes, most philosophies:
1. See this as the path of release (being saved, fully-realized, etc.) from the wheel of incarnation; and
2. Also see it as the springboard to other planes of spirit reality, to continued
and never-ending spirit growth.

I love this post!!!

[mulyo13]

Originally Posted by starnight1

In buddhism, when a person reaches the state of nirvana, does that mean he is ONE with Source with universe, does that mean it's the end of karmic wheel, and then it's the final state?
If not, what will happen after that?

and, Is there an end to the journey, or never an end?

When a person reaches the state of nirvana, it doesn't matter/problem if he is one with Source with universe, or it's the end of karmic wheel, or .... etc. Because the desire/will/want/hope to reach enlightenment, become one with source/universe, end of karmic wheel,... etc, is also a form of suffering. Even the desire/will/want/hope to end suffering, is also a form of suffering.
Understanding suffering need time and not as simple as you think. Many people skip this process and directly to understand/learn emptiness.
Buddhism teach to live/stay in present moment, not future. Understanding suffering is the best start.

In simple words(Zen style),
I don't know, because I haven't reach nirvana/enlightenment. When you reach nirvana/enlightenment, you will know.

I hope you can understand my point

[jonesboy]

Here is my take if you don't mind.

There are two aspects to enlightenment. One is clarity and the other is depth.

Many traditions have the goal of reaching clarity/oneness and the end of suffering. Ending the cycle of rebirth and returning to the source/Nirvan. This is the goal of most Yoga traditions and Theravada Buddhism and that of an Arhat.

Reaching oneness is not the end of the cycle of rebirth. It is the end of progress in this life. No more obstructions can be released so the progress of depth is ended. Just look at all of the great masters that have been reborn, they even say so.

A great example of this is Ramana or Neem Karoli Babe. They both had great powers, there silence alone could induce Samadhi in others. If oneness was all the same everyone who reached such a state would have powers. You will notice they don't, or not to the same degrees as the great masters that is because of depth.

Depth is where the Daoist and Mahayana Buddhist pick up. That is where the talk of Immortals and the Rainbow body comes into play. Within Yoga and many other traditions there is only 7 chakras and the belief is once you open all 7 you are done. The truth is opening the 7 chakras is only the beginning. Within Buddhism the creation or the path to the rainbow body is achieved using the practices called The Six Yoga's of Naropa. Techniques like Trecho after one has achieved Rigpa or the Book of the Dead are used help one achieve it after death for example.

The Buddha mentioned there are countless immortals and Buddha's, each of the Divine Beings, Gods etc have achieved the rainbow body or the body of Light that Jesus described.

The Lotus Sutra really goes into this and here is an example of the continued depth explained in more detail by my teacher.

Lotus........................................Jeff
5 - Conscousness......8 - universal human consciousness/layer
.................................. 9 - universal plant and animal consciousness/layer
..................................10 - planetary/galactic Conscousness/layer
..................................11 - multi/parallel dimension consciousness/layer
4 - Time.....................12 - time/layer
3 - Space...................13 - unified "oneness"
..................................14+ - deeper refinement with Various beings/Gods/Immortals
2 - Buddha/Wisdoms..Not really a level/layer, more the Full realization of Heart sutra. Can define or
......................:............... upgrade a Level 3 Space.
1 - Nirvan...................Kind of checking out of it all. Reintegration of Buddhamind and noble wisdoms. Primordial bubble.
0 - Emptiness............."Raw" or primordial emptiness

So the spiritual process is about clarity/oneness and the continued process of depth of becoming a Buddha/Christ or a Bodhisattva or an Immortal etc.. if that is your choice. Some choose to end suffering and return to the source while others want to continue the process with greater depth. That could be becoming an Immortal and doing your own thing or becoming a Bodhisattva and helping others achieve freedom from samsara.

Also of note the above levels are your levels of consciousness, your level of oneness with those things. It is entirely different than traveling the astral planes and talking to Divine Beings, that is separation and far from the same thing. That is level 6, 3rd eye stuff.

Hope this helps,

Tom

[RedFall]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Here is my take if you don't mind.

There are two aspects to enlightenment. One is clarity and the other is depth.

Many traditions have the goal of reaching clarity/oneness and the end of suffering. Ending the cycle of rebirth and returning to the source/Nirvan. This is the goal of most Yoga traditions and Theravada Buddhism and that of an Arhat.

Reaching oneness is not the end of the cycle of rebirth. It is the end of progress in this life. No more obstructions can be released so the progress of depth is ended. Just look at all of the great masters that have been reborn, they even say so.

A great example of this is Ramana or Neem Karoli Babe. They both had great powers, there silence alone could induce Samadhi in others. If oneness was all the same everyone who reached such a state would have powers. You will notice they don't, or not to the same degrees as the great masters that is because of depth.

Depth is where the Daoist and Mahayana Buddhist pick up. That is where the talk of Immortals and the Rainbow body comes into play. Within Yoga and many other traditions there is only 7 chakras and the belief is once you open all 7 you are done. The truth is opening the 7 chakras is only the beginning. Within Buddhism the creation or the path to the rainbow body is achieved using the practices called The Six Yoga's of Naropa. Techniques like Trecho after one has achieved Rigpa or the Book of the Dead are used help one achieve it after death for example.

The Buddha mentioned there are countless immortals and Buddha's, each of the Divine Beings, Gods etc have achieved the rainbow body or the body of Light that Jesus described.

The Lotus Sutra really goes into this and here is an example of the continued depth explained in more detail by my teacher.

Lotus........................................Jeff
5 - Conscousness......8 - universal human consciousness/layer
.................................. 9 - universal plant and animal consciousness/layer
..................................10 - planetary/galactic Conscousness/layer
..................................11 - multi/parallel dimension consciousness/layer
4 - Time.....................12 - time/layer
3 - Space...................13 - unified "oneness"
..................................14+ - deeper refinement with Various beings/Gods/Immortals
2 - Buddha/Wisdoms..Not really a level/layer, more the Full realization of Heart sutra. Can define or
......................:............... upgrade a Level 3 Space.
1 - Nirvan...................Kind of checking out of it all. Reintegration of Buddhamind and noble wisdoms. Primordial bubble.
0 - Emptiness............."Raw" or primordial emptiness

So the spiritual process is about clarity/oneness and the continued process of depth of becoming a Buddha/Christ or a Bodhisattva or an Immortal etc.. if that is your choice. Some choose to end suffering and return to the source while others want to continue the process with greater depth. That could be becoming an Immortal and doing your own thing or becoming a Bodhisattva and helping others achieve freedom from samsara.

Also of note the above levels are your levels of consciousness, your level of oneness with those things. It is entirely different than traveling the astral planes and talking to Divine Beings, that is separation and far from the same thing. That is level 6, 3rd eye stuff.

Hope this helps,

Tom

I have an extreme amount of difficulty understanding this scale. Does this go from the base physical existence to some spiritual paragonal understanding?

[jonesboy]

The scale you could say is a chakra level. level 8 would be opening the 8th chakra and achieving the Rainbow body. Leading up to becoming a Buddha and then the last state of returning to Raw Emptiness.

You could say it is ones level of oneness.

According to Mahayana Buddhism a Buddha is a creator of worlds or Universes.

We are each individual mind streams, streams of light that comes from the Dao/primordial emptiness. A Buddha is a being that is able to create a stable bubble within that emptiness for the beings of light to experience and grow. That bubble is where Shakti and Shiva come from. The not second or void and form... silence/emptiness and energy/form.

For instance the current Buddha that everyone is aware of is considered the 6th Buddha within this system. The last Buddha talked about a new turning. A turning is an increase in the spiritual ability of the people. This Buddha brought about a deeper level of spirituality than what was possible before with the Yoga system.

Some would say that Jesus brought about a new turning which is why after him you have tantra really take off with Dzogchen and Kashmir Shiavism.

The deeper you go the greater your degree of oneness with all that is. One way of looking at things is with a nesting doll concept. Each doll is a deeper layer of oneness or of expansion.

Hope this helps.

[RedFall]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The scale you could say is a chakra level. level 8 would be opening the 8th chakra and achieving the Rainbow body. Leading up to becoming a Buddha and then the last state of returning to Raw Emptiness.

You could say it is ones level of oneness.

According to Mahayana Buddhism a Buddha is a creator of worlds or Universes.

We are each individual mind streams, streams of light that comes from the Dao/primordial emptiness. A Buddha is a being that is able to create a stable bubble within that emptiness for the beings of light to experience and grow. That bubble is where Shakti and Shiva come from. The not second or void and form... silence/emptiness and energy/form.

For instance the current Buddha that everyone is aware of is considered the 6th Buddha within this system. The last Buddha talked about a new turning. A turning is an increase in the spiritual ability of the people. This Buddha brought about a deeper level of spirituality than what was possible before with the Yoga system.

Some would say that Jesus brought about a new turning which is why after him you have tantra really take off with Dzogchen and Kashmir Shiavism.

The deeper you go the greater your degree of oneness with all that is. One way of looking at things is with a nesting doll concept. Each doll is a deeper layer of oneness or of expansion.

Hope this helps.

Incredibly so. I wish to learn more from you.

[django]

"Average people, blind with the cataracts of dimwittedness, not only have a heap of defiled, perverted behavior, but even produce proofs and charts about it, and present it as wonderful subject matter."

(from Dancing Moon in the Water, Jigme Lingpa)

[starnight1]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The scale you could say is a chakra level. level 8 would be opening the 8th chakra and achieving the Rainbow body. Leading up to becoming a Buddha and then the last state of returning to Raw Emptiness.

You could say it is ones level of oneness.

According to Mahayana Buddhism a Buddha is a creator of worlds or Universes.

We are each individual mind streams, streams of light that comes from the Dao/primordial emptiness. A Buddha is a being that is able to create a stable bubble within that emptiness for the beings of light to experience and grow. That bubble is where Shakti and Shiva come from. The not second or void and form... silence/emptiness and energy/form.

For instance the current Buddha that everyone is aware of is considered the 6th Buddha within this system. The last Buddha talked about a new turning. A turning is an increase in the spiritual ability of the people. This Buddha brought about a deeper level of spirituality than what was possible before with the Yoga system.

Some would say that Jesus brought about a new turning which is why after him you have tantra really take off with Dzogchen and Kashmir Shiavism.

The deeper you go the greater your degree of oneness with all that is. One way of looking at things is with a nesting doll concept. Each doll is a deeper layer of oneness or of expansion.

Hope this helps.

Yes i understand the levels, we r actually more than 7 chakras...

so , we came from Dao/ Raw emptiness and we will go back to the same Raw emptiness?
and then?
will the Raw emptiness start to expand into shakti and start a new universe again?

[running]

Originally Posted by django

"Average people, blind with the cataracts of dimwittedness, not only have a heap of defiled, perverted behavior, but even produce proofs and charts about it, and present it as wonderful subject matter."

(from Dancing Moon in the Water, Jigme Lingpa)

Remind me to stay away from citics like Jigme. Total waste of time.

[django]

Sure, here you go, running this is a reminder to stay away from critics like Jigme, because critical thought is a total waste of time to you.