What should I have done?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by markings

My wife had a number of back operations. She has to be careful with certain activities like lifting things.
I also have a good friend of the opposite sex who stayed with us for 2 months to teach us, me and my students, some better dancing skills. She is 18 years younger than my wife, 15 years younger than I, full of vigor and fun.
At some point my wife asks why I spend so much time with her and one of the answers I gave was "I can do things with her which I can't do with you".
My wife felt hurt about what I said and over a year later still bears a grudge about what I said.

What are your thoughts?

Markings, hello there.

Well, TBH, I think you yourself paint a poor picture of your wife in your comments, and you say your response to her is that you can do things with the other woman, whom you've spent a great deal of time with. Not certain if it was all dancing, but it would seem perhaps not.

Moreover, your focus (per your posts) seems to be on the youth and vitality of the other woman, versus the more fragile state of your wife, who is older and thus some decline physically will happen eventually. She may have a back issue, and then again you most likely cannot go more than once a night without meds, simply because you are both no longer 15 to 20 yrs younger as this other woman is.

If your wife wanted to be around younger men for outings and hobbies that for whatever reason precluded you and told you in so many words that you were lacking and they were not...hence she would be doing hobbies with them (and getting herself off later after the boost)...how would you feel? Particularly if she singled one out to spend time with personally?

To be honest, if you care about your wife, I hope you've already decided to spend time with her doing things you can both enjoy, and making love with her whilst also thinking of her. As otherwise, you're being extremely unfair to her and you're not doing your own character development as a man any favours either.

And, you've a right to your hobbies within reason of course, but if you care about your marriage, I would recommend you cut back on this hobby and take up some other form of vigourous exercise that doesn't facilitate spending loads of time in the company of the opposite sex, since you and many others likewise are vulnerable to physical appearances, stimulation, and touch.

Likewise, IMO you've no right to make others feel small and it sounds as if you've done just that for quite some time now, both in how you've spent your time and in how you've spoken to and treated your wife over the last year or more. I can only hope that you never get old and/or never require any care or consideration of any kind from your wife. Comparisons are odious and IMO you need to excise those you've been doing from your mind and from your life.

Here are some alternative suggestions....perhaps for your primary exercise, you could try something like vigourous laps in the pool whilst she does some gentle water aerobics, or what have ye. Perhaps you could limit your line dancing to once a month or something that doesn't severely impede your marriage and the time you have to spend with your wife, and invite your wife to the after-dance drinks or hangouts. Make it clear she's "your lady" and you're not there trolling.

There are also plenty of couples and group activities and discussions you could do together...walks and so forth...and you may also need to make it clear to your wife that you want to get out with her and do whatever she is able to do, together -- even if you have to take it slow, and that you are totally ok with that. Lest she feel shamed by all you've said before about how she's lacking.

Point being, it seems odd and unlikely that this is the only way you could spend your time, or socialise, or get your exercise. There are many, many options for socialising...and nearly equally many for exercising -- either for you alone or which you could do as least part of the time with your wife, or alongside her in some way at your different levels or paces. I think it only requires a bit of reflection and will, or desire, on your part...along with having some kind and compassionate discussions with your wife where you express interest in doing some activities together, both in and out of the bedroom.

Good luck!

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by Torgo

What do you define as his "duty" to her?

I suppose it's a sad reflection on how society has fallen apart with abandoning the concepts of duty and responsibility in favour of right and entitlements. I may have gone down this route but for my parents' inspiration. Circumstances prompted attention to duty - not in any harsh way. It came from me. As for duty in this instance, the woman is his wife as stated and that comes with certain contractual obligations. If someone doesn't want those obligations, don't get married. That's me.

Your profile says nothing about you so I have to speak in a general sense.

Anyway, I look at it this way: if my partner was deaf and felt bad that he couldn't listen to music, does that mean I should give up listening to music, too, in support of him? I imagine it would eventually end up causing resentment. So I think as long as there is mutual respect and, thus, honesty in the relationship, then people usually end up accepting things the way they are and find happiness for others, even if they aren't feeling too happy about their own situation.

I'm not sure that's a good example. it doesn't parallel marking's situation, at the least in that it doesn't involve another individual absorbing your time to the detriment of your partner. One converges or diverges, rarely staying parallel. To me it's give rather than take in the hope I'll be given to in return. It doesn't always work out that way hence divergence.

However, things will be as they must. I was just putting forth my view as invited.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

I suppose it's a sad reflection on how society has fallen apart with abandoning the concepts of duty and responsibility in favour of right and entitlements.

Yah. There seems to be a severe lack of empathy here, or some severe obstacle to it. That's why I usually recommend self-reflection and also bringing your honest needs to your partner, to find a way to meet some of the core needs together.

I always turn it around and consider the situation that way as well.
Would he have welcomed a younger man in his home for 2 months, one who loved spending time with his wife whilst he..dunno..helped her with physical therapy and gentle yoga? Even if not too awfully handsy?

What if the wife became critical of Markings' relative lack, and also resentful and entitled about having her time with her special friend who had not only the youth and vigour but also the therapy or yoga skills that he didn't? And thus she wanted to also spend loads of time with him doing many other things because he was just so fun and Markings was a drag etc.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest she'd been cruel and insensitive when stating Markings lack (as a man and a husband, it's implied) simply because this gent was 20 yrs younger and more virile? What about their marriage and his love for her? Didn't she still love him enough to regard and honour him as a man? As her husband? Couldn't she limit her time with this gent and/or also include her husband at some outings, so it's clear she's not trolling or being less than honest about her intentions? Of course she could. Couldn't Markings do yoga with her, etc., even if as a newbie -- or something else entirely, whatever worked? Of course.

Markings says visiting his wife in hospital for 3 mos was burdensome, it took a heavy toll on him as now he's less interested in dancing (? I didn't get this bit at all but apparently it's her fault for the whole of it). So then it seems now he feels entitled to do as he pleases whilst he disparages her to her face and to strangers, both.

It seems as if he's got a wall of resentment and entitlement built up and it's not clear to me if he is truly open-minded about his choices, or if he came seeking affirmation for what he was determined to do anyway, and damn the consequences.

However, if the shoe is ever on the other foot...I'd certainly not want to count on compassion, kindness, dignity, and inclusion being given to me when I'd trod her underfoot in her time of need -- whilst I pursued an ego-driven "hobby" plus an exclusive 1-on-1 friendship -- from which I conveniently excluded her. Particularly if I never or rarely sought quality time and activities together, nor brought her to the socialising that went on with my friend and/or was associated with my hobby.

The bottom line is, Markings CAN make a choice to do more things with his wife in some way, and care for his health and socialising in ways that are not ultimately sexually oriented, however it's packaged. In ways that are not geared toward spending time with other women for ego boosting and (presumably still solo at this point) sexual gratification thereafter. No offense intended...but this is just a part of being a man for most men, and he can either channel it honourably or indulge it in a debased and degraded way, using others in your life as porn/masturbation fodder.

Or not. Up to the man.

The decency, respect, kindness and integrity inherent in a man is at the core of his lifelong spiritual path and challenge.

If Marking's mind's already made up that it must be this one thing his way or highway, however, then this discussion and the suggestions made may fall on deaf ears. But if not, I'd be interested in hearing whether he's read and absorbed our points for consideration.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Imzadi]

Originally Posted by markings

My wife had a number of back operations. She has to be careful with certain activities like lifting things.
I also have a good friend of the opposite sex who stayed with us for 2 months to teach us, me and my students, some better dancing skills. She is 18 years younger than my wife, 15 years younger than I, full of vigor and fun.
At some point my wife asks why I spend so much time with her and one of the answers I gave was "I can do things with her which I can't do with you".
My wife felt hurt about what I said and over a year later still bears a grudge about what I said.

What are your thoughts?

Do you see why your wife felt hurt? I imagine she will continue to feel hurt unless you are able to demonstrate your empathy and understanding of why she felt the way that she did in reaction to the comment that you made. While you may have answered truthfully and openly, it would be considered callous, cruel, and hurtful to most people in her situation.

Your wife may want to spend more time with you, but due to her ailments she is unable to. She suffers already from her physical limitations, and also from the lack of attention and fun that she misses out with you. Meanwhile you get to engage in activities with another woman who as you described is full of vigor and fun. It's kinda like rubbing it in her face that she is not able to provide the fun, vigor, and pleasurable company for you so you are looking for it in another woman.

If your needs are not met by your wife in any shape or form, then you guys might have to make a decision and compromise on what to do next. She deserves a more compassionate husband that can empathize with her vulnerabilities and needs just as much as you deserving to have your needs (whatever they may be) met as well. Perhaps a marriage counselor could help you both sort out your circumstance and plot a course for mutual happiness that works for the both of you.

[Tortoise Walks]

ssI understand the desire to empathize with the wife in this situation... and how easy it is to project negative comments from Markings over an extended time frame even though he shared only one comment where he states she is still holding onto/bringing up - but maybe not diving into why it hurts so much and how they can move past this obstacle for the benefit of both? I've actually been in a similar type of situation myself and know how hurtful it can be... and yes how we deliver our thoughts and feelings does matter... still there can be growth and self-reflection. for me it really was an opportunity to heal my own wounds and expectations of co-dependence which abound in marriage (IMO) as well as learning to work on communication patterns. Life-partnerships and marriage are quite interesting... stagnation in patterns and wounds can be an obstacle in an echo chamber of two (or many)... ultimately I found a need/desire to individuate from my coupling/marriage in order to show up for it - whole.

7L you make wonderful suggestions to build intimacy and connection with Markings wife. I hope Markings considers them. All sorts of life happenings challenge a committed life partner relationship and having "go-to" activities and ways to bond regularly with his wife IS key to help their marriage thrive. Especially if past go-tos change and shift. Partners grow in different directions, at different speeds... there can be many chapters of ebb and flow in one relationship. You can be different people as you change. Sometimes having "important and meaningful to you both" ways to bond is just what is needed to bridge your shared pathways towards each partner's soul fulfillment over time. Isn't this really the goal of partnership? To foster the best for the other? Love for the other... Love is patient and such... I do really believe this. Also worthwhile to mention that sometimes relationships grow incompatible over time and need to part ways from it's current form in order for individuals/new chapters to thrive. I don't believe all marriages are best kept alive, always. Particularly if each partners goals/passion/dreams no longer align in a meaningful way. Even in marriage we are meant to live our own life fully, IMO.

Following dreams and passions are important! Helps to keep motivated in life... It sounds like dancing is a dream and passion of yours. Sounds like it may also be part of your work? Students? Classes? Who knows what your divine plan is in this regard? Do you feel some kind of inner calling that dancing help to express? Does this female friend help you forward with this aspect of your life's journey? People show up in our lives with good reason I believe... They help us grow into who we can imagine ourselves to be and trigger us to grow from where we came. It can happen that very important people on our soul's journey are not our spouse/partner. Maybe even came into our lives because our partners are not able to reflect some aspect of ourselves that we need to discover, work through, and express in some way. This can really hurt. This can also teach you things that you didn't have access to with your spouse before wish your spouse alone but yet now both you and your spouse could potentially grow closer as a result... if you can and choose to...

I disagree that a spouse should limit their passions/dreams for their partners. Sounds more like bondage than freedom and soul support to me. Though there are many people who are not looking for freedom in a relationship.. There are so many unique people in this world who devote their lives to many different priorities... It is not wrong or right. It is! There is no one size fits all so the making of a marriage/relationship/intention is truly an inside job between the two individual people relating. People come up with their own definitions for marriages... Mine doesn't include self-sacrifice and purposefully censoring myself from authentic external inspiration and soul growth for the benefit/comfort of my partner to avoid facing their own issuess I'm open to partners who support my exploration of the world to find my way just as I do theirs. I take it from what Markings has shared that he may feel similarly.

Of course sharing honestly who you are with your partner is important...
Of course honoring who your partner is is important...
Of course setting expectations as best you can of future dreams and lifestyles is important...
Of course people change... Hard as it can be...

Some dreams do come at a cost... We can't always have/do everything we want all at once. Where we spend our time and apply ourselves matters. We can intend to seek out a partner with whom we can find balance and harmony. I understand that your wife is going through a physical hardship that is terribly hard on you both. It is kind and honorable to help her through this process of self-discovery. To work on communication styles. It is loving to spend time and seek out new ways to discover the meaning and nuance of your marriage bond and what it is to be with each of your shifting identities and capabilities... It would be loving of her to support your dreams/passions as well - even if she doesn't/can't share them.

I want to acknowledge that this may not be some silly, sex based hobby that you should readily give up or minimize long term. You didn't mention a sexual connection with your friend so maybe that's not even the issue for you. Maybe slow down during acute care periods and while you repair your connection with your wife. It's important to show up. Rediscover and trust in the meaning and importance of your marriage based on what IS - with or without dancing, or sex, or other people, or whatever else. Maybe you shared dancing with your wife in the past and now she can't... temporarily or forever... In which case you are both likely grieving for the loss of that shared expression. That will take time.s

I often wonder about advice for people to stay away from members of the opposite sex to protect a hetero marriage or relationship... Especially if there is some kind of shared passion or chemistry shared with another (that at first we may perceive to be primarily sexual) Even if it is... Sigh... I think it's soul energy when we are lit up and inspired in connection with others... personally I think "protecting" a relationship by keeping "appropriate" (to whom?) boundaries just adds to the separation between men and women in general as we purposely close ourselves off from meaningful interactions with a large portion of the population. At work... In our hobbies... and we wonder why there is gender disparity in the work place and a lack of authentic connecting while we don't want our partners to get too close to anyone else lest they be tempted (to what?? Leave? Why not let them if shey are only staying for duty...)

While it is important to support your wife through her changes it is also important for her to support you... what is important to you does matters

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yah. There seems to be a severe lack of empathy here, or some severe obstacle to it. That's why I usually recommend self-reflection and also bringing your honest needs to your partner, to find a way to meet some of the core needs together.

I always turn it around and consider the situation that way as well.
Would he have welcomed a younger man in his home for 2 months, one who loved spending time with his wife whilst he..dunno..helped her with physical therapy and gentle yoga? Even if not too awfully handsy?


Peace & blessings
7L

This is "my trouble"

Trying to lead a spiritually-inspired life has taught me to try to be honourable,
to honour obligations into which I tie myself even if I don't like the fallout. How I'd
deal with a lifelong obligation I don't know which is why I'm single.
It happens with business contracts anyway and to people where necessary.
My parents for example who gave so much support as I turned up on their doorstep
in a bit of a fragile state. They gave me a chance. Almost a positive trauma
if that can be imagined. How can one not honour what's expected?

I only make promises I know I'll keep unless...come what may.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Walks

ssI understand the desire to empathize with the wife in this situation... and how easy it is to project negative comments from Markings over an extended time frame even though he shared only one comment where he states she is still holding onto/bringing up - but maybe not diving into why it hurts so much and how they can move past this obstacle for the benefit of both? I've actually been in a similar type of situation myself and know how hurtful it can be... and yes how we deliver our thoughts and feelings does matter... still there can be growth and self-reflection. for me it really was an opportunity to heal my own wounds and expectations of co-dependence which abound in marriage (IMO) as well as learning to work on communication patterns. Life-partnerships and marriage are quite interesting... stagnation in patterns and wounds can be an obstacle in an echo chamber of two (or many)... ultimately I found a need/desire to individuate from my coupling/marriage in order to show up for it - whole.

7L you make wonderful suggestions to build intimacy and connection with Markings wife. I hope Markings considers them. All sorts of life happenings challenge a committed life partner relationship and having "go-to" activities and ways to bond regularly with his wife IS key to help their marriage thrive. Especially if past go-tos change and shift. Partners grow in different directions, at different speeds... there can be many chapters of ebb and flow in one relationship. You can be different people as you change. Sometimes having "important and meaningful to you both" ways to bond is just what is needed to bridge your shared pathways towards each partner's soul fulfillment over time. Isn't this really the goal of partnership? To foster the best for the other? Love for the other... Love is patient and such... I do really believe this. Also worthwhile to mention that sometimes relationships grow incompatible over time and need to part ways from it's current form in order for individuals/new chapters to thrive. I don't believe all marriages are best kept alive, always. Particularly if each partners goals/passion/dreams no longer align in a meaningful way. Even in marriage we are meant to live our own life fully, IMO.

Following dreams and passions are important! Helps to keep motivated in life... It sounds like dancing is a dream and passion of yours. Sounds like it may also be part of your work? Students? Classes? Who knows what your divine plan is in this regard? Do you feel some kind of inner calling that dancing help to express? Does this female friend help you forward with this aspect of your life's journey? People show up in our lives with good reason I believe... They help us grow into who we can imagine ourselves to be and trigger us to grow from where we came. It can happen that very important people on our soul's journey are not our spouse/partner. Maybe even came into our lives because our partners are not able to reflect some aspect of ourselves that we need to discover, work through, and express in some way. This can really hurt. This can also teach you things that you didn't have access to with your spouse before wish your spouse alone but yet now both you and your spouse could potentially grow closer as a result... if you can and choose to...

I disagree that a spouse should limit their passions/dreams for their partners. Sounds more like bondage than freedom and soul support to me. Though there are many people who are not looking for freedom in a relationship.. There are so many unique people in this world who devote their lives to many different priorities... It is not wrong or right. It is! There is no one size fits all so the making of a marriage/relationship/intention is truly an inside job between the two individual people relating. People come up with their own definitions for marriages... Mine doesn't include self-sacrifice and purposefully censoring myself from authentic external inspiration and soul growth for the benefit/comfort of my partner to avoid facing their own issuess I'm open to partners who support my exploration of the world to find my way just as I do theirs. I take it from what Markings has shared that he may feel similarly.

Of course sharing honestly who you are with your partner is important...
Of course honoring who your partner is is important...
Of course setting expectations as best you can of future dreams and lifestyles is important...
Of course people change... Hard as it can be...

Some dreams do come at a cost... We can't always have/do everything we want all at once. Where we spend our time and apply ourselves matters. We can intend to seek out a partner with whom we can find balance and harmony. I understand that your wife is going through a physical hardship that is terribly hard on you both. It is kind and honorable to help her through this process of self-discovery. To work on communication styles. It is loving to spend time and seek out new ways to discover the meaning and nuance of your marriage bond and what it is to be with each of your shifting identities and capabilities... It would be loving of her to support your dreams/passions as well - even if she doesn't/can't share them.

I want to acknowledge that this may not be some silly, sex based hobby that you should readily give up or minimize long term. You didn't mention a sexual connection with your friend so maybe that's not even the issue for you. Maybe slow down during acute care periods and while you repair your connection with your wife. It's important to show up. Rediscover and trust in the meaning and importance of your marriage based on what IS - with or without dancing, or sex, or other people, or whatever else. Maybe you shared dancing with your wife in the past and now she can't... temporarily or forever... In which case you are both likely grieving for the loss of that shared expression. That will take time.s

I often wonder about advice for people to stay away from members of the opposite sex to protect a hetero marriage or relationship... Especially if there is some kind of shared passion or chemistry shared with another (that at first we may perceive to be primarily sexual) Even if it is... Sigh... I think it's soul energy when we are lit up and inspired in connection with others... personally I think "protecting" a relationship by keeping "appropriate" (to whom?) boundaries just adds to the separation between men and women in general as we purposely close ourselves off from meaningful interactions with a large portion of the population. At work... In our hobbies... and we wonder why there is gender disparity in the work place and a lack of authentic connecting while we don't want our partners to get too close to anyone else lest they be tempted (to what?? Leave? Why not let them if shey are only staying for duty...)

While it is important to support your wife through her changes it is also important for her to support you... what is important to you does matters

Hello Tortoise!
Just to clarify...
No one is saying give up your dream or passion.
No one is saying that folks should stay away from members of the opposite sex across the board.
I don't agree with any of that and I certainly hope you're not referencing my posts or putting those sentiments or words onto me.

I myself believe in total trust and integrity and would simply have none of a relationship where either partner strove to act in ways that were self-serving, or to incite negativity, or acted basely in general. If you don't have trust and honesty, then you've very little and certainly you cannot sustain a relationship on the ground.

My advice was strictly practical, and it was especially geared to men's sensitivities. We as women are simply not as vulnerable physically to appearance, touch, or events/situations/things packaged sexually or which are sexually oriented. They don't strike at our vulnerabilities, but we have to expand ourselves a bit to realise our experiences in the world do not define everyone...and there is a broad difference in our vulnerabilities here by physical gender or sex.

Just as certain people are vulnerable to alcohol or drugs and must take care around certain situations, the fact is that men are, as a whole, extremely vulnerable to appearance and touch and contexts that are packaged or oriented sexually regarding men's perspectives.

This is simply a reality, a factor that men do have to consider in ways that women will never fully realise or apprehend. A man's nature, broadly speaking, is what it is and like all things is an inherent good which a man must also then choose to use for the good. His generally far stronger and more visually stimulated sex drive is not silly and in no way do I minimize or belittle it. I honour it and acknowledge it.

No one should ever be shamed for their core nature, for who they are. What we do have control over are our choices, our words and our deeds. Key to taking choices with awareness is fully accepting our nature, which means our vulnerabilities and our iniquities as well as our strengths...and acting to the best of our ability from that point of awareness.

We can all make choices which involve balance and compromise, where we strive to honour and to be loving to those in our lives that matter most, in ways that consider them equally to our own selves. But in order to do that, we must be honest with ourselves and own our vulnerabilities and our true (often hidden) intentions...and bring those fully into the light alongside our strengths. For example, we all have needs and we all have feelings...but no partner can read your mind...and excluding or shaming them is simply unkind and unloving. The honest way for any of us would be, e.g., to bring your needs and your feelings to the table, along with contrition and love and a sincere desire to spend time together in ways that suit you both and disparage none. That takes the courage to be vulnerable...which means you have to already bring that within yourself to the table.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Tortoise Walks]

Thank you for clarifying 7L! Your posts on SF frequently lead to my own percolating. I agree and resonate with many ideas as I similarly value authentic connection and being loved first and foremost for who I am as a person. Also value honesty and kindness in my own interactions and deeds.

Honestly, I did get the impression from your posts that Markings love and passion (and career?) was reclassified as a hobby to be readily minimized/replaced for the comfort of his wife. I also got the impression that his appreciation for his friends vigor and fun was seen as primarily based on a sexual agenda/intent that he never indicated. I wasn't sure where all of the focus on sexuality was coming from. He shared there was no physical contact among dancers. While he did mention age I don't focus on that as I think vigor and fun is not denied to us as we age necessarily. That is something that resides within, an internal mindset, and maybe Markings’ friend helped him to tap into his own vigor and fun. It can be contagious in the best of ways. He could infuse his marriage with that vigor and fun energy he has if both are open to it.

A lot of my misunderstanding of your posts can be summed up from the following passages as well as that Markings was entitled and self-serving:

"And, you've a right to your hobbies within reason of course, but if you care about your marriage, I would recommend you cut back on this hobby and take up some other form of vigourous exercise that doesn't facilitate spending loads of time in the company of the opposite sex, since you and many others likewise are vulnerable to physical appearances, stimulation, and touch.

Likewise, IMO you've no right to make others feel small and it sounds as if you've done just that for quite some time now, both in how you've spent your time and in how you've spoken to and treated your wife over the last year or more. I can only hope that you never get old and/or never require any care or consideration of any kind from your wife. Comparisons are odious and IMO you need to excise those you've been doing from your mind and from your life. ..."

He shared he can do things he can't do with her. It was a true statement... in response to a question she asked. Could have been worded much more sensitive and smoother, sure. He had a right (responsibility) to be honest and express himself as best he could with what he knew at the time. How she feels about it and how he feels about it now is the opportunity offered to both to make what they will... Even discussing how they would have liked it to be worded. I find it quite useful to "rewrite history" of relationship convos that went sideways to where both can say- yeah - that would've been shared/received so much better. Hugs!!!

In the following I'm not sure I understand what is "honorably" vs. "debased and degraded" in terms of OP's situation or even more broadly... Maybe these are all hypotheticals?

"The bottom line is, Markings CAN make a choice to do more things with his wife in some way, and care for his health and socialising in ways that are not ultimately sexually oriented, however it's packaged. In ways that are not geared toward spending time with other women for ego boosting and (presumably still solo at this point) sexual gratification thereafter. No offense intended...but this is just a part of being a man for most men, and he can either channel it honourably or indulge it in a debased and degraded way, using others in your life as porn/masturbation fodder."

While I think sex drive could be a tangent from the OP I'd love to hear more from you about your thoughts on honoring and acknowledging mens sexuality. (Maybe I have some mens sexuality within me to integrate? hmmmm...hehe) I am similarly looking for healing between men and women and forging new authentic pathways. I know I have room to explore...

As a sexual/soulful/passionate being :-) I appreciate the freedom to explore this side of myself with authentic lovers and friends and co-creators in mutually beneficial and growing ways with gratitude. I don't require a life-partner promise or exclusivity to "fill-in-the-blank" (sex, arting, dancing, lunching, caring...) to explore what feels authentically joyful and true in my heart in the NOW as a whole (sexual) being. This is what I pick up in many of your posts where shared sexuality seems to require exclusive commitment and life-partnering to be an authentic connection? For me... Showing up with loving intent is enough... and I share what feels right for me... knowing that patterns of good will, generosity, honesty, passion, and compassion, definitely melt my heart wide open ;-) As always... Maybe things shift in the future and sharing changes... ok. If I am needing/looking for/expecting certain outcomes of my sharing/loving it's up to me to communicate that and choose not to bypass my own inner alignment to go beyond what I know is good for me. To control my own actions and choices and to let others do the same for themselves... even if their choices are different than what I would choose or want. This is honoring and acknowledging each person's sexuality to me.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Walks

Thank you for clarifying 7L! Your posts on SF frequently lead to my own percolating. I agree and resonate with many ideas as I similarly value authentic connection and being loved first and foremost for who I am as a person. Also value honesty and kindness in my own interactions and deeds.

Honestly, I did get the impression from your posts that Markings love and passion (and career?) was reclassified as a hobby to be readily minimized/replaced for the comfort of his wife. I also got the impression that his appreciation for his friends vigor and fun was seen as primarily based on a sexual agenda/intent that he never indicated. I wasn't sure where all of the focus on sexuality was coming from. He shared there was no physical contact among dancers. While he did mention age I don't focus on that as I think vigor and fun is not denied to us as we age necessarily. That is something that resides within, an internal mindset, and maybe Markings’ friend helped him to tap into his own vigor and fun. It can be contagious in the best of ways. He could infuse his marriage with that vigor and fun energy he has if both are open to it.

A lot of my misunderstanding of your posts can be summed up from the following passages as well as that Markings was entitled and self-serving:



He shared he can do things he can't do with her. It was a true statement... in response to a question she asked. Could have been worded much more sensitive and smoother, sure. He had a right (responsibility) to be honest and express himself as best he could with what he knew at the time. How she feels about it and how he feels about it now is the opportunity offered to both to make what they will... Even discussing how they would have liked it to be worded. I find it quite useful to "rewrite history" of relationship convos that went sideways to where both can say- yeah - that would've been shared/received so much better. Hugs!!!

In the following I'm not sure I understand what is "honorably" vs. "debased and degraded" in terms of OP's situation or even more broadly... Maybe these are all hypotheticals?



While I think sex drive could be a tangent from the OP I'd love to hear more from you about your thoughts on honoring and acknowledging mens sexuality. (Maybe I have some mens sexuality within me to integrate? hmmmm...hehe) I am similarly looking for healing between men and women and forging new authentic pathways. I know I have room to explore...

As a sexual/soulful/passionate being :-) I appreciate the freedom to explore this side of myself with authentic lovers and friends and co-creators in mutually beneficial and growing ways with gratitude. I don't require a life-partner promise or exclusivity to "fill-in-the-blank" (sex, arting, dancing, lunching, caring...) to explore what feels authentically joyful and true in my heart in the NOW as a whole (sexual) being. This is what I pick up in many of your posts where shared sexuality seems to require exclusive commitment and life-partnering to be an authentic connection? For me... Showing up with loving intent is enough... and I share what feels right for me... knowing that patterns of good will, generosity, honesty, passion, and compassion, definitely melt my heart wide open ;-) As always... Maybe things shift in the future and sharing changes... ok. If I am needing/looking for/expecting certain outcomes of my sharing/loving it's up to me to communicate that and choose not to bypass my own inner alignment to go beyond what I know is good for me. To control my own actions and choices and to let others do the same for themselves... even if their choices are different than what I would choose or want. This is honoring and acknowledging each person's sexuality to me.

Tortoise, hello there.

Re: hobby, Markings referred to his activity as a hobby he enjoyed, so I similarly used the term hobby or activity. That's all good. The rest of it is judgments you've put onto me or assumed that I've made so you'll need to put that aside to read the rest of what I've shared below.

Thanks for sharing...you've provided a good deal of stuff that insightful into you and where you're coming from. Many that show you don't see how or where sexuality comes into the picture for Markings as a man. It comes into the picture in exactly the same way his dreams and passions and feelings come into the picture. There is no difference between these things in their source (the core of who he is) and in their interwoven connection. But if we lack that fundamental understanding of those who are not-us, then we might leave out this core piece (sexuality). Whereas 99% of men would never, ever...ever....make that mistake.

I want to say all this as sensitively and kindly as possible. We are all limited in our understandings in various ways. Some of us more so and some less so. Often also more so on certain things, and perhaps less so on others. I'll try keep my comments fairly brief, LOL. But like I said and tried to underscore in all caps (so to speak), we absolutely have to acknowledge that our own perspectives are not others, and also that (as it's pertinent here) there are some very real and fairly broad differences between men and women.

So I think the 1st thing you may want to do is apprehend and acknowledge that when you come from a perspective that (understandably) doesn't fully apprehend how sexuality and the connection of their sexuality with visual and tactile stimulation are frankly central to men's core natures and how they interact with the world, then you (and many of us, likewise) are limited. It is not something that is segregated from their being, their intent and thought, their words, deeds, hobbies or anything else they are or do. It is central to how they exist, perceive, interact and relate -- in certain core ways that are fundamentally different to women, broadly speaking.

Thus when we "leave that out of the equation", or when we deny its centrality and the fullness of its reality and its impact for others who are not-us, so to speak, we do several things...we impose our way of being and relating on others and then implicitly expect them to experience and interpret reality as we do, for one. Dismissing that there is a sexual component for a man in situations where 99% of men would say that there is, at least for the man, would be a common response or outcome of this lack of common understanding regarding our core natures and our core vulnerabilities. This unfortunately denigrates and shames men for being who they are, as they are...i.e., it is a dehumanising act that many of us do out of ignorance, without thinking.

Moreover, when we leave this out of the equation -- in minimising the centrality of sex and its connection with the core of men and how they relate to the world, we deny men the fullness of their existence and their being, which is an inherent good. Men's nature is an inherent good that is in certain core ways fundamentally different from our inherent core good. Yes, there are vast individual differences all round, but to deny or dismiss or marginalise these particular differences is frankly dehumanising to men.

There is simply no way IMO to fully recognise and honour men's humanity without including the vulnerabilities and core aspects of their nature that are different to ours. They are more vulnerable in this way -- regarding sex, and regarding visual and tactile stimulation which to a man will have a fundamental sexual aspect. Frankly that is just simple fact and IMO it is also the way of lovingkindness and equanimity. Broad strokes but there it is. We as women are more vulnerable in other ways, certainly physically, and we too feel dehumanised when our needs are dismissed or brushed off.

This is not to say that sex and sexual or sensual contexts for men do not also often have a social or exercise aspect. Of course they may. Men are human and they have feelings and seek connection with others just as we all do. But men can't cherry pick their being and their core nature. All of this is fundamentally intertwined with his sexual nature. And that's why being self-aware and honourable and taking conscious choices with pride and integrity is so important.

I hope I've clarified a bit and done a bit of advocacy for all the gents who may as yet still feel too dehumanised by much of our modern cultural paradigm, which seeks to exploit and degrade a man's natural inclinations whilst denying him the voice to speak more authentically about the nature of his being and how to channel all that he is to the good, in loving and sustainable ways that honour all and exploit, degrade, & dehumanise none. Where in all honesty the mainstream paradigm denies that there are in fact healthy and sustainable ways to be, particularly as a man, and how these ways all involve authentic love of one another first and foremost as people and as friends.

---
(Also, practically speaking, the OP is married so waxing poetic about uncommitted sex is about you and not particularly useful to the OP, LOL... and plays exactly on those vulnerabilities and challenges of men that I mentioned...

But if you're interested, IMO...regarding what any of us do personally...do as you like but don't deny as a woman or as a man that you are harming both self and others whenever you use your sexuality frivolously and divorce it from authentically loving, meaningfully committed partnerships (of whatever form or format, your choice). IMO we participate in misalignment with your own centre in so doing. Whilst anyone of us explores utilitarian, exchange-based sexual relationships, we participate in both our own misalignment and in that of others. Importantly, that is a choice that we take and therefore are responsible for and need to fully own. Others have their opinions on this and that's fine, but the opinions we offer to the OP are not authentically loving IMO unless we respond to him with his highest good at heart, equally to all others in his life AND also with their highest good at heart, equally to his. Not him at the exclusion of his wife, etc., nor vice-versa. And IMO, whether married or single, recommending or espousing uncommitted sex is never authentically loving as it's never in everyone's mutual highest good.

Additionally it is IMO never wise or loving to disregard or disparage the relationships and bonds of others, even if and especially if they themselves do it...IMO folks need to handle themselves honourably and lovingly all round, not dishonestly nor in service to self. This requires us to redirect them toward their own self-reflection and honest, open dialogue about their needs, if they want to be truly honourable in their relationships. Then it's on them to hopefully handle and address their relationships honourably...)
---

We certainly will never meet in the middle when we deny men the centrality of sexuality in their lives and at the core of their being. Plus, how can men accept that they must take ownership choose to use the inherent good that they are FOR the good (i.e., in authentic love), when they too are still working to be understood and accepted in the fullness of their being? Likewise, when men appear to deny or lack understanding of our need to be authentically loved at a personal level, for who we are, before sexual intimacy is sought, demanded or required, then we certainly don't feel accepted in the fullness of our being, most of us, and our needs are never met, from the get go.

No one will ever feel truly loved if they are not accepted and understood more fully. First we've got to be thoroughly honest with ourselves about our true nature and our core needs as souls and as human beings. And then we need to feel that we are welcomed at the table and that our voices are being heard and honoured. Everyone's got work to do

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yah. There seems to be a severe lack of empathy here, or some severe obstacle to it. That's why I usually recommend self-reflection and also bringing your honest needs to your partner, to find a way to meet some of the core needs together.

I always turn it around and consider the situation that way as well.
Would he have welcomed a younger man in his home for 2 months, one who loved spending time with his wife whilst he..dunno..helped her with physical therapy and gentle yoga? Even if not too awfully handsy?

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

This is "my trouble"

Trying to lead a spiritually-inspired life has taught me to try to be honourable, to honour obligations into which I tie myself even if I don't like the fallout.

How I'd deal with a lifelong obligation I don't know which is why I'm single.
It happens with business contracts anyway and to people where necessary.
My parents for example who gave so much support as I turned up on their doorstep in a bit of a fragile state.
They gave me a chance. Almost a positive trauma if that can be imagined. How can one not honour what's expected?

I only make promises I know I'll keep unless...come what may.

Hey there Lorelyen...yes, questions
I am not much on traditional marriage as a religious institution myself, though IMO if we are mutually non-traditionally religious, progressive and possess integrity and the capacity for authentic love (giving and receiving)...then some sort of authentically loving and committed partnership could still be very rewarding.

Because at the same time, I also think that it's fundamentally dehumanising to penetrate anyone or to have sex more broadly (as there are many ways to use someone) without a mutual authentic love and some sort of meaningful commitment. Whatever that may be, so long as it is real and mutually honoured.

Unless (for example) folks just want some occasional sex and touch and are openly paying for it & are willing to honestly own where you live...no pretenses whatsoever, just an honest utilitarian business exchange done to your standards. There is always some honour in at least being honest and transparent about where we're living, you know? I think this route is far more honourable for men than literally loads and loads of desultory, utilitarian, modern-day "relationships" of sex and convenience, including many marriages no doubt.

Now...as to promises...you've said before that folks often died and were lucky to live to a ripe old age, so most likely they were primarily just counting their blessings in that regard. And there were no other options aside from using prostitution or else openly engaging in deceit (of course I love you & always will, so let's have sex, eh?), which was discouraged as being in poor character in pre-modern times under the heavy hand of the social and religious patriarchy. And let's face it, the heavy hand is long gone...but it's still in poor character to behave deceitfully and/or to manipulate folks. Difference is now it just happens fairly universally and so lazy excuses are conveniently at hand.

We've become a culture rife with low character in our most intimate dealings. That's where huge numbers live but typically don't want to acknowledge the deceit &/or exploitation...and whether one-sided or two-sided makes no difference. It's all down to whether we ourselves are owning our own intentions, requiring a level of self-honesty often unavailable whilst living with deceit. It's the honesty that's lacking, unlike in prior times where we didn't have readymade, lazy excuses for low behaviour like "it's the norm"/everyone's lied or manipulated to get sex/everyone's doing it, etc.

Unfortunately now folks spend so much of their lives in misalignment and misdirection, that many lack a fundamental understanding of authentic love and integrity in relationship (to self, to others, etc). There is a level of self-absorption in modern society and our gratuitous indulgence of our whims and urges that often preclude even the most basic honouring and respecting of others as fully human. And not existing to please, service, and/or cater to our fundamental needs...which frankly we and we alone are responsible for and no one else.

The apparent or supposed paradox is that in being fully present to self and others, and in the giving and receiving of authentic love...not sexual, but simple agape love of one another as people and as souls...it is here we most fully occupy our own presence and it is here we most fully experience our own bliss.

Getting back round to the promises...I agree we should never make those lightly. It's part and parcel of getting to know oneself and the nature of our soul relationships with others. In truth, what I refer to as temporal entanglement (most relationships of all kinds in our lives) are often difficult...certain of our family and many unworkable partnerships, for example. But proximate and foundational entanglements (at the soul level) are much rarer...and therefore those promises are harder to keep without a very high, sustained, and refined level of mutuality in agape love for one another as fellow human beings in partnership. In today's era...well, good luck to us all on that one

Peace & blessings
7L