Enlightenment

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

Lord Buddha is often quoted to have said:
"Events happen, deeds get done. There is no individual doer thereof"
There is neither a me nor a you nor any one doing, achieving, reaching anything. Source is all there is.
Deepest conviction of personal Non-doership .... is Peace

Yeah, that's Buddha who spent decades attaining that Truth. Not to be made a placard and belief of.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Agreed. I sometimes wonder if some of these neo-advaitins are simply lazy - they don't want to make any effort and they hope that realisation will just happen.

And for a path which is based on the idea of nothing to do and nowhere to reach, there seems to be a lot of books and youtube videos talking about doing nothing and going nowhere. I guess that someone must be doing something.

$, prestige, belief system.

[Uday_Advaita]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Agreed. I sometimes wonder if some of these neo-advaitins are simply lazy - they don't want to make any effort and they hope that realisation will just happen.

And for a path which is based on the idea of nothing to do and nowhere to reach, there seems to be a lot of books and youtube videos talking about doing nothing and going nowhere. I guess that someone must be doing something.

Having said that, I totally agree that the Self does nothing and goes nowhere. But somehow we have to realise the Self, otherwise all we have are ideas. Which is where sadhana comes in.

Peace.

I respect your concept that without sadhana or effort, Enlightenment cannot take place. You have further said that, I quote –“But somehow we have to realise the Self” – Who is this “we” wanting to realise the Self. It must be the: me, the person, the Ego

My humble submission is (whenever I refer to me or my, please consider it as this Mind Body Apparatus -MBA)

1. Source is operating through all objects, animate or inanimate
2. If in a particular MBA, Enlightenment is destined to happen, the Source will ensure that the required effort or the desired path would also happen.
3. If an MBA is too lazy to do any effort then it is so designed / programmed by the Source and yet Enlightenment may happen if destined. Why blame the Apparatus.
4. Lord Krishna has said that “Out of thousands, only a few would become seekers and out of that only a few would know me” Why would the urge to become a seeker come to a normal person unless it is a happening?
5. A seeker who constantly thinks that “I must do this or I must do that to somehow go nearer and nearer to the goal of enlightenment” is carrying the burden of personal doer-ship. There is truly no separate you or me to do any effort.
6. So I wish to simply say that: Please let it go. If Enlightenment is destined to happen, the choice of path will happen and the required effort too will happen.
7. Source is all there is and is the sole Doer

Namaskar

[Shivani Devi]

http://www.dlshq.org/discourse/nov97.htm

[Shivani Devi]

Also, we are still in Kali Yuga...There is a lot of deception, false gurus and self-serving ideologies in Kali Yuga and those who follow Dharma should guard themselves against it... because it will be taken as a "fact" by those who have been caught up in the whole process.

This includes, but is not limited to those who become lazy and believe they can get liberation through the touch of a charlatan, or by not doing any Sadhana whatsoever. They will believe that no effort is required to attain Samadhi and will tout themselves as being realised souls... putting on the garb of a Sadhu and going around deceiving others and themselves.

In Kali Yuga, one has to be very careful and use total discrimination (Viveka) to get to the truth...and they will also be ridiculed and persecuted by those already lost to the whiles of this age.

Thus, they can also keep going for hundreds of lifetimes saying "I don't need to do anything to get enlightened" until such times as they realise that they DO...and it is pointless trying to tell them otherwise, because this is their karma...their minds have already been made up.

Once, I said to a Neo Advaitin "so, you say you are enlightened without having to do anything.... isn't the bliss, the 'Satchitanananda' of the enlightened state totally awesome!!! Incredible!!!"

To which, they simply said 'what bliss?'

...and in that moment, I understood.

[Joe Mc]

I've got about 15 mins before the school run so this is going to be rushed isnt it. Ok have you ever had your mouth shut up ! or your mind stopped !! That quality of our being we call our intellect. The ability to word and concept make, do we actually know what that is ? Have you ever had your posh school burned down or your ordinary school closed ? Have we ever really ? Have you ever been humbled in this way ? Surely intellectual titillation abounds more than any other other human preponderance on our planet. But is good or bad ? Is conceptual knowledge a prison or is it a path leading to 'Enlightenment' ? A question i have asked myself many times. People have it seems a smathering, an inkling of what deep certitude and happiness is, spiritual liberation, and they weld it to some intellectual knowledge and viola, they are enlightened. Not sure if this two pence worth of a post has contributed at all. I'm quite enjoying the thread however. thanks.

Also, just an after thought, alot of the what might be termed the neo-advaitins, although i'm not too sure who fits into that category and who doesn't have done Sadhana if i may use that word. And some of them have done lots of it but they always claim it wasn't the Sadhana that liberated them ? I find this very puzzling sometimes, the fact that some guy has practiced meditation assidiously for 20-20 yrs and can then say ..that the meditation had nothing to do with his so called 'awakening'. hmmm ..more food for thought.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Also, just an after thought, alot of the what might be termed the neo-advaitins, although i'm not too sure who fits into that category and who doesn't have done Sadhana if i may use that word. And some of them have done lots of it but they always claim it wasn't the Sadhana that liberated them ? I find this very puzzling sometimes, the fact that some guy has practiced meditation assidiously for 20-20 yrs and can then say ..that the meditation had nothing to do with his so called 'awakening'. hmmm ..more food for thought.

Very true.

Peace

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

I respect your concept that without sadhana or effort, Enlightenment cannot take place. You have further said that, I quote –“But somehow we have to realise the Self” – Who is this “we” wanting to realise the Self. It must be the: me, the person, the Ego

My humble submission is (whenever I refer to me or my, please consider it as this Mind Body Apparatus -MBA)

1. Source is operating through all objects, animate or inanimate
2. If in a particular MBA, Enlightenment is destined to happen, the Source will ensure that the required effort or the desired path would also happen.
3. If an MBA is too lazy to do any effort then it is so designed / programmed by the Source and yet Enlightenment may happen if destined. Why blame the Apparatus.
4. Lord Krishna has said that “Out of thousands, only a few would become seekers and out of that only a few would know me” Why would the urge to become a seeker come to a normal person unless it is a happening?
5. A seeker who constantly thinks that “I must do this or I must do that to somehow go nearer and nearer to the goal of enlightenment” is carrying the burden of personal doer-ship. There is truly no separate you or me to do any effort.
6. So I wish to simply say that: Please let it go. If Enlightenment is destined to happen, the choice of path will happen and the required effort too will happen.
7. Source is all there is and is the sole Doer

Namaskar

And yet Source is not the Doer. Source does nothing, although all actions occur within Source.

We could discuss this endlessly, questioning what is meant by the use of words such as "we" and "I", and it all gets a bit pointless.

The question is, are you speaking from a position of identification with Source (or enlightenment if you want to use such a term)?

Or are you just sharing mental concepts without knowing the reality behind them?

Peace.

[Shivani Devi]

Many Advaitins follow the teachings of the Sage of Arunachala, Ramana Maharishi.

Ramana Maharishi became awakened during his late teens as the direct result of a near death experience...He could have stopped there...said "I am enlightened now" and that would have been that...The whole world would have been none the wiser.

What followed, was 50 years of INTENSE Sadhana! Meditating for hours and hours on end until insects bored into his skin.. until calluses formed...until he collapsed with malnutrition.. until he couldn't walk anymore..

The statements...the Mahavakyas like "I am That" is not a statement of truth..It is a statement of attainment..an utterance of personal experience! You can teach a parrot to say it! Will the bird be thus enlightened?

Also, Ramana Maharishi was a great Shiva devotee all his life! Why do you think he went to Arunachala instead of just staying where he was? Again, the world would have been none the wiser.

What is the legacy of this great personage? An entire generation of intellectuals who believe that the very act of introspection is sufficient unto itself to claim enlightenment. They are just using another aspect of ego to override the more apparent one and perform all manner of mental gymnastics in the attempt to make it sound more plausible.

I believe that what Ramana Maharishi was saying is "want to know who you really are? Then meditate until you find out... don't just take my word for it".

[Altair]

It's about getting rid of all the baggage.. the less baggage the easier the connection to X/Y/Z..

I have yet to see anyone who has freed themselves fully of anger, doubt, sadness, desire, attachment, etc. All the things that are conditional, learned habits and part of human's lower reality. A lot of people may claim to be, but my first instinct is to always not believe them. They make the big claim, so it's up to them to show it. Speaking in parables ain't enough to make an impact.