Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Most Anything > The Sanctuary

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 09-02-2017, 09:02 PM
blackraven blackraven is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,566
  blackraven's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Is it the 3rd dimension or just 3 dimensional?

I wonder what freedom means from the perspective of what is 'not free', so there must be some nature of shackle which inhibits to define 'not free', and I think I'm really asking what is the shackle?

The 'shackle' could be universal of course such as having the freedom to make ones own decisions and choices in life. That's pretty basic, but I think shackles are unique to each individual depending on the degree of freedom (not defined yet) one has already experienced in life. For me shackles are living in fear of future unknowns. It's that mode of thinking that restricts me in relaxing and being at peace with myself in the moment.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-02-2017, 09:07 PM
blackraven blackraven is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,566
  blackraven's Avatar
Just noticed that this is a very old thread. Interesting nonetheless.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-02-2017, 04:25 AM
Gem Gem is online now
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,073
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
The 'shackle' could be universal of course such as having the freedom to make ones own decisions and choices in life. That's pretty basic, but I think shackles are unique to each individual depending on the degree of freedom (not defined yet) one has already experienced in life. For me shackles are living in fear of future unknowns. It's that mode of thinking that restricts me in relaxing and being at peace with myself in the moment.

Indeed, as age comes upon us the social options available are reduced, and the uncertainty inherent to life can be disconcerting. I'm sure there is a simple guruic answer, but over time I have found that ideals that seem like answers are one step removed from the lived reality, for future thoughts are also part of what survives us, but this doesn't distract from the more pertinent case that this moment is the one which determines the future, just as past moments led here to 'this', so if there is freedom, it is made here.

I was thinking of freedom in two ways. The 'freedom from' and the 'freedom to': The freedom from whatever might be bondage, and the freedom to act - with increased possibility, options or choices - but now I'm also considering a third freedom: the freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-02-2017, 01:55 PM
blackraven blackraven is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,566
  blackraven's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I was thinking of freedom in two ways. The 'freedom from' and the 'freedom to': The freedom from whatever might be bondage, and the freedom to act - with increased possibility, options or choices - but now I'm also considering a third freedom: the freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are.

I think the 'freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are' may also present itself as a form of lack of freedom or shackles. For example, what comes to mind is living in a contorted physical body as a result of injury or birth defect or mental deterioration: both being free to be just as they are, but are such persons experiencing freedom at all? So often on these forums I come across vast numbers of people that have medical or mental disorders that drive them into suffering. Is suffering a freedom or is it shackles from freedom of good or optimal health?

But I think I get what you're saying, maybe, about 'freedom with', is it more so living in the moment as is and having the freedom to accept things as they are or freedom to reject ones current state of being? That kind of freedom?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-02-2017, 02:13 AM
Gem Gem is online now
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,073
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
I think the 'freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are' may also present itself as a form of lack of freedom or shackles. For example, what comes to mind is living in a contorted physical body as a result of injury or birth defect or mental deterioration: both being free to be just as they are, but are such persons experiencing freedom at all? So often on these forums I come across vast numbers of people that have medical or mental disorders that drive them into suffering. Is suffering a freedom or is it shackles from freedom of good or optimal health?

But I think I get what you're saying, maybe, about 'freedom with', is it more so living in the moment as is and having the freedom to accept things as they are or freedom to reject ones current state of being? That kind of freedom?

I often wonder if people can observe themselves just to find out what's there without any judgment or likes and dislikes or impulsion to interfere, control, fix, make better ad so on. In short, can it just be as it is? If one is able to be fine and at peace with it just as it is could we say it is then free to be the way it is, and therefore, the person free from it? This isn't a case of liking it as it is, but even without liking it, seeing it factually as 'the way things are'.

Not to reject it and not to accept it, but the utter and complete removal of any choice in the inevitable fact of 'this', so that all that is left is the conscious awareness with this experience as it is in the way it is being experienced.

What then of action? For it would seem so passive that one would lie down and soon die rather than continue living, but here I argue action would be a willingness to act rather than acting willfully. In other words, to act in accordance with or in synergy with the movement of life as it unfolds within the experience. If there is a choice, this is it: one can be willing or willful, but not both at once, for willingness implies forsaking ones sense of volition. For example, one can't observe the spontaneously occurring breath and control the breath at the same time. There is either willingness toward the breath or willfulness toward it. Willfulness is all about thinking about the breath ad making it do as you 'tell it'. Willingness is letting it be as it is while being conscious of it. It takes willfulness to not breath and hold the breath, so inaction is actually the interference of volition. If you leave it alone it continues to rise and fall - so willingness is 'immediate action' even before 'you' make any choices to accept, reject, alter, control or what have you.

This brings up the subtle difference between 'letting go' and 'letting be' which is relative to the difference between 'freedom from' and 'freedom with'.

In the case where volition is forsaken for willingness, what of 'ego'? In willingess there nothing that needs to be done because action unfolds much like the breath does, and there is naught but to be aware of it all unfolding. The brain continues just as it did but you no longer preconceive thoughts. They appear simultaneously as they are perceived, an instant manifestation of which you are conscious and willing, rather than willfully projecting. And what kinds of thoughts are these? That willingness is 'at rest' so to speak, so the troubled mind isn't concocting conflict as the thought is produced/perceived and then fighting that perception (which already exists) with a second thought about 'making it different'. There's no ego trying to be the controller and the mind is set free form that tyranny.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 13-02-2017, 08:29 PM
blackraven blackraven is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,566
  blackraven's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I often wonder if people can observe themselves just to find out what's there without any judgment or likes and dislikes or impulsion to interfere, control, fix, make better ad so on. In short, can it just be as it is? If one is able to be fine and at peace with it just as it is could we say it is then free to be the way it is, and therefore, the person free from it? This isn't a case of liking it as it is, but even without liking it, seeing it factually as 'the way things are'.

Not to reject it and not to accept it, but the utter and complete removal of any choice in the inevitable fact of 'this', so that all that is left is the conscious awareness with this experience as it is in the way it is being experienced.

What then of action? For it would seem so passive that one would lie down and soon die rather than continue living, but here I argue action would be a willingness to act rather than acting willfully. In other words, to act in accordance with or in synergy with the movement of life as it unfolds within the experience. If there is a choice, this is it: one can be willing or willful, but not both at once, for willingness implies forsaking ones sense of volition. For example, one can't observe the spontaneously occurring breath and control the breath at the same time. There is either willingness toward the breath or willfulness toward it. Willfulness is all about thinking about the breath ad making it do as you 'tell it'. Willingness is letting it be as it is while being conscious of it. It takes willfulness to not breath and hold the breath, so inaction is actually the interference of volition. If you leave it alone it continues to rise and fall - so willingness is 'immediate action' even before 'you' make any choices to accept, reject, alter, control or what have you.

This brings up the subtle difference between 'letting go' and 'letting be' which is relative to the difference between 'freedom from' and 'freedom with'.

In the case where volition is forsaken for willingness, what of 'ego'? In willingess there nothing that needs to be done because action unfolds much like the breath does, and there is naught but to be aware of it all unfolding. The brain continues just as it did but you no longer preconceive thoughts. They appear simultaneously as they are perceived, an instant manifestation of which you are conscious and willing, rather than willfully projecting. And what kinds of thoughts are these? That willingness is 'at rest' so to speak, so the troubled mind isn't concocting conflict as the thought is produced/perceived and then fighting that perception (which already exists) with a second thought about 'making it different'. There's no ego trying to be the controller and the mind is set free form that tyranny.

This response is jammed pack and I would like to have the ability to comment on every sentence of it, but unlike a few people on SF, yourself including, I'm afraid my thinking isn't fluidly deep. My thoughts get lost in the translation process of writing them down.

What came to mind as I read everything you wrote is that when the mind is busy judging this isn't right or this is ok and I can live with it for now, it's ego activity. It's that ego activity that imprisons one outside of the moment of now, just as it is. I used to say 'I avoid that which I need the most'. Even when I said it I didn't know why or what I meant by it other than fear kept me stagnant from moving ahead in say social aspects and experiencing enriching relationships. That's just an example of my ego telling me to protect the frailness of the self, myself.

If when living in the moment one observes their thoughts, is not that observation the catalyst for making a move in a direction? If I sit observing my rumbling stomach, I then tell myself I'm hungry so I go get something to eat. But if I stayed still and observed the hunger get worse without leaving to get food, wouldn't the uncomfortable feeling in my stomach cause distress? I can let the distress build or I can ignore it altogether. Even the ignoring is a choice to take inaction. This thought about making it different, like you talked about I can see doesn't have to involve the ego, in the example I gave. Is it the lack of ego involvement that sets one free and if so in what way?

I think I'm going around and round with what I'm saying and not getting very far ahead. Philosophy is not my strong suit by any stretch of the imagination. No kidding. I try. I understand all of which you say, I just don't have the means to respond in like kind. I wish I did.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums