Dependent origination

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by janielee

To be fair there are Christian mystics and contemplatives, but mainstream Christianity is largely a belief based religion today.

Buddhism otoh is entirely, apart from culture based countries, a practice based religion. This is how the Buddha taught - Kalama, raft, eightfold, Nibbana, freedom. It’s all oriented to knowing for oneself.

Btw did you ever apologize to Jyotir for s******ing at BigJohn’s incorrect assertion that slavery has been in America for less than 100 years?

Jl

My opinion is that many Buddhist teachings, and practices are subjective misinterpretations. So, we can't argue your truth against mine.

I don't remember expressing an opinion on slavery, although I remember a discussion between them. You must've misinterpreted my post. If you can point me to that, I can explain it. I noticed that you appreciate Jyotir. This is why I remember reading a couple of his posts, and disagreeing with some of his views.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

How can that be so?

Why are Buddhist translators not questioned whereas you question Christian translators?

Should not both groups be questioned the same?

Yes, they should be questioned and ruthlessly critiqued.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by sky123

You believe what you have experienced through practice not what you read.

The "practice" is based on Buddhist teachings and gurus, so it starts from beliefs that are, (guess what!) as expected, confirmed. Even more, the practice's goal is to confirm them.

My point was / is that your truth doesn't weigh more than anybody else's. At least on my scale ...

I respect everybody's right to their opinions (not their opinions), and I'm amused by those who believe they know the absolute truth, especially if they subscribe to others' truth.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by janielee

Chuckles, I thought you were familiar with a Buddhism, but then you’re actually a Christian too really. I assume you married a lovely woman who comes from a cultural Buddhist backgroun, which is wonderful by the way. Congratulations.

Translation? I remember the last time a competent translator ie Shivani Devi offered to correct you, and you went through the roof.

There are many who no longer need the words, John, you misunderstand who you are,

Jl

Translations?

It is hard to believe you mock me when some on this site were translating a transliteration. They did not know the difference and apparently you also do not know the difference.

As for being a Buddhist, some on this forum have made it clear who is and who is not a Buddhist. The Buddhist I know are not that judgmental.

As for your sentence "Translation? I remember the last time a competent translator ie Shivani Devi offered to correct you, and you went through the roof" did not prove anything. Many people have problems identifying a source language, its transliteration and what a transliteration is and a translation. I asked numerous times what language was being presented and I was told it was the source language when in fact it was a transliteration.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, they should be questioned and ruthlessly critiqued.

Thanks for your thought.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky123

Both Buddhism and Christianity are based on translations that can be mistranslated.

Believing in a translation that is mistranslated is in of itself blind faith for both religions.

Can you point out which Buddhists Teaching has been ' mistranslated ' please.

No Buddhism is not about blind faith, didn't your Buddhist wife etc point that out to you?

Mistranslations lead to the wrong outcome and you can test this out for yourself.[/quote]



Do all translations look identical? If not, why?

Could it be, one or more translators may have mistranslated something? That is why looking at the source language can help in finding out which translation is more accurate.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by inavalan

The "practice" is based on Buddhist teachings and gurus, so it starts from beliefs that are, (guess what!) as expected, confirmed. Even more, the practice's goal is to confirm them.

The ontological structure is firstly to hear the dhamma teachings and assume there is something to them on the basis of them supposedly said by the enlightened one; secondly, to intellectually check if they are consistent, logical, they add up or seem to make sense and; lastly, to investigate the 'mindful objects' (mind body thoughts sensations) to see for yourself if what was said is true.

My point was / is that your truth doesn't weigh more than anybody else's. At least on my scale ...

I respect everybody's right to their opinions (not their opinions), and I'm amused by those who believe they know the absolute truth, especially if they subscribe to others' truth.

Yes it's a good point. Firstly there is philosophical aspect in the sense it is true a sutta says this and that, and that's quite a complex or nuanced philosophy. Secondly there's a practice, which is where it seems to become a mish mash of contradictory undertakings. Hence people can say you are feelings in one sentence and say you can't be that in the next.


I think the basic point is overlooked, and that is, are you aware of 'this' as it actually is (in the way you experience it to be) right now? There is an underlying investigation which looks into the more fundamental nature of said actuality - "selfness", impermanence, change, emptiness and what have you.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by janielee

You think Buddhism is just discovering awareness? Pff.

Jl

I'd say you can't discover awareness as we are awareness. But one can be aware of different things obviously. That's an interesting concept to think of awareness as something one can discover though, it makes awareness an object, something one can perceive.

You might be thinking of being aware of our true nature free of the conceptual, and the resulting experience, but I am not aware of awareness, I am aware of this experience as it is free of the conceptual. Awareness was not discovered, a state free of the conceptual was.

I think awareness is an aspect of consciousness, as such, it can vary in quantity or strength. It's like a muscle, the more it is utilized, the stronger or greater it becomes.

One basic meaning of awareness is how much is contained within the view or perception. Perception is not visual only. Understanding is perceived as well. So more awareness is about more being perceived of what is possible to perceive. That's what I meant before when I said it is infinite in potential. If awareness can grow bigger, why would there be a limit in how great it can become? And the bigger awareness is, the more understanding and perception can be included within it.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by janielee

Btw did you ever apologize to Jyotir for s******ing at BigJohn’s incorrect assertion that slavery has been in America for less than 100 years?

Jl

janielee, I suspect Math was not one of your favorite subjects.

The 13th Amendment was passed in 1865.
The USA began in 1784.

The difference, which is the number of years slavery existed in the USA, is about (1865-1784) 81 years.

Can you please show the math at how you get over 100+ years without getting upset?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

A lot of popular Buddhist translations into English are terrible if you are looking for meanings according to English. The average English speaker will never get the meanings seems to me. Like we have the Dalai Lama in a video explaining we are consciousness and we give life to the embryo when we enter it around the time of birth. Then somebody reads a Loka Sutta translation and falsely thinks, oh consciousness is a delusion. Or they conclude consciousness arises as a product of dependent origination, and goes away with cessation.

The real meanings of something like the Loka Sutta can be found as an English speaker, but you have to do some real mental gymnastics to get there. But then I don't think the translators care much about conveying meaning as they probably are just trying to do a word match game and produce as many translations as possible to get more traffic to their web sites.

Yea you basically need to to do a whole bunch of meditation to get the gist of the philosophy...