Do you find Christmas spiritual?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Well, maybe not in your Bible, clearly-not-inhabiting-the-same reality-scenario-as-me BJ but in mine, which is the King James translation, it clearly says: "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." and also "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


The idea of a 'punishing' and/or 'rewarding' 'God' is the result of people antropomorphizing the 'nature' of 'Reality', ThatMan. A River (in this case The Flow of Life) simply 'negatively' reinforces those 'molecules' that that go against its flow and 'positively' reinforces those that flow with It.

BJ's notion of what's said in the Bible about how 'God' (i.e. The Flow of Life) operates and his consequent pronouncements are a "blind man's buff" therefore, IMO.

Older versions of the King James Bible have problems and some of them are serious in nature. I recommend using the New King James version which has eliminated most of those problems. The first scripture you quoted dealing with hell is Luke 16:23 from an earlier version of the King James Bible. It reads:

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

The New King James Bible reads:

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

In the New King James Bible, hell was removed and the proper word, Hades, was rightfully included.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by Honza

As a Christian or not; do you find Christmas spiritual? Personally I believe that Jesus came from God and therefore I find Christmas very spiritual. It is not just 'another' festival. It is the celebration of God coming to earth to save us.

I love Christmas time. It is full of Christ's spirit.

I agree with you Honza (and I do not consider myself Christian).

Even though "Christmas without Christ" is quite often the absurd norm in our hyper-commercial culture (for most on this forum e.g., post-modern, urban, middle class, etc.), there are also often very deeply moving spiritual experiences available and inspired by the Savior and His Holiday.

~ J

[JosephineB]

for most on this forum e.g., post-modern, urban, middle class, etc

Really?! Did we have a survey?

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

The New King James Bible reads:

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

In the New King James Bible, hell was removed and the proper word, Hades, was rightfully included.

This is 'splitting hairs' in relation to the idea of 'punishment' by way of 'torment', IMO. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" yada-yada. I think my 'point' still stands unrebutted therefore.

From: https://www.peterlundell.com/online-...-what-happens/ :

"A major difference and a major similarity stand out between Hades and Gehenna. The difference is that Hades is temporal; it has an end. And in Hades we see implied in some biblical passages, which we’ll look at next, a vague and limited possibility of redemption utterly absent in Gehenna. Gehenna is eternal, and it is the greater entity, for Hades is thrown into it. The similarity is that like Gehenna, Hades is a place of fire and torment—at least for some like the rich man, though all the imagery suggests that Gehenna is much worse."

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by : BigJohn's original statement

If some would open their Bibles, that is after they go and get one, they would realize Hell is not in the Bible.

How much wrath was thrown around because this simple 'step' could not be implemented?

Originally Posted by davidsun's final reply

This is 'splitting hairs' in relation to the idea of 'punishment' by way of 'torment', IMO. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" yada-yada. I think my 'point' still stands unrebutted therefore.

From: https://www.peterlundell.com/online-...-what-happens/ :

"A major difference and a major similarity stand out between Hades and Gehenna. The difference is that Hades is temporal; it has an end. And in Hades we see implied in some biblical passages, which we’ll look at next, a vague and limited possibility of redemption utterly absent in Gehenna. Gehenna is eternal, and it is the greater entity, for Hades is thrown into it. The similarity is that like Gehenna, Hades is a place of fire and torment—at least for some like the rich man, though all the imagery suggests that Gehenna is much worse."

I stated that Hell is not in the Bible. You were able to show Hell is mentioned in an older King James translation. I produced the same scripture but from the New King James translation which does not use Hell.

The issue was not what the scripture says but over the issue that Hell is not mentioned in the Bible, at least Bibles that are based on better translations and older manuscripts, etc. that have been found to prove Hell was not suppose to be in the Bible. That whole doctrine of Hell, appears to have been completely made up.

[white pegasus]

"Or acceptance that others can have different views about the same subject, and that's ok."
__________________

hmm........perhaps you need to re-read the original post by honza-think you misunderstood my view on the subject

i was not debating what He said-I was in agreement with what He said.

[sky]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

"Or acceptance that others can have different views about the same subject, and that's ok."
__________________

hmm........perhaps you need to re-read the original post by honza-think you misunderstood my view on the subject

i was not debating what He said-I was in agreement with what He said.

Nuff said, no more talky talky But I wish you a Healthy and Happy New Year

[white pegasus]

oh im sorry sky-my previous post I should have addressed it to the correct person-that would be josephineblggs-

I was going to address your support thread to her statement but changed my mind-hope this clarifies my post and to whom it was intended for.

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

"Or acceptance that others can have different views about the same subject, and that's ok."
__________________

hmm........perhaps you need to re-read the original post by honza-think you misunderstood my view on the subject

i was not debating what He said-I was in agreement with what He said.

Yes. Then you went on to say "honza the opposing argument would be what? to oppose ones argument would mean to go against what one has believed."

Then I said "Or acceptance that others can have different views about the same subject, and that's ok."

Meaning, you or anyone else doesn't have to give up their own beliefs even though they aren't in agreement with one another.

[sky]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

oh im sorry sky-my previous post I should have addressed it to the correct person-that would be josephineblggs-

I was going to address your support thread to her statement but changed my mind-hope this clarifies my post and to whom it was intended for.

No need to apologize, mistakes happen.
Regarding my support for JB, yes I do agree 100% with her wise way of looking at reality...