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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #31  
Old 28-07-2017, 12:08 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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[quote=ketzer]
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Originally Posted by Moondance

Hello Moondance

What I am getting at is the inherent conflict in the concept of seeing through the ego and realizing all is one and the ego is not the self. If the ego is the minds concept of self, then can the mind conceptualize that it is not the self without also conceptualizing something else that is doing the seeing (conceptualizing). If so, then is this not the minds new concept of self (i.e. a different phenomenal self or another type/form of ego which it is now seeing as self)? In other words, there is an inherent duality in a seer that sees through the phenomenon, there is both a subject (seer) and an object (phenomenon - ego in this case), two things, not one. Can oneness be aware of itself as one or must it first create a separate self (subject that is aware) to be aware of other things or concepts (objects of awareness)? Can the universe be aware of itself without first creating a set of eyes (from itself) through which to look at itself with? Can the universe be the cake and eat it too? Apparently, but how.....IDK.

For a moment think of Oneness as a kind of creative Life-force or creative ground (though don’t take that too literally.) Anything that can be conceived of is always already downstream of that creative ground. If the machinations of the limited human intellect conceives things as subjects or as objects or as raindrops or galaxies, there is, by default, already participation in/as the creative ground in order for that to occur.
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  #32  
Old 28-07-2017, 12:30 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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[quote=Moondance]
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Yes, the end to feeling disconnected from Oneness does not have to mean modifying or eliminating the ego but it does require the ‘seeing through’ of ego. (The real meaning of ego in spiritual/nondual teachings is ‘ego identification’, attachment the limited self (ahamkara). Seeing through the limited phenomenal self and having the realisation of the truth of our situation is awakening.)

Oneness is always the case - yet the realisation of it is not. This is the significance of ‘seeing through’ the ego.

There is no disconnection if not seeing through because there is simply nothing else available, other than Oneness, to not see through.

Nothing needs to change for complete connection already. The problem is not including everything as Oneness, especially the things we don't like.
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  #33  
Old 28-07-2017, 01:25 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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[quote=Iamit]
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Originally Posted by Moondance

There is no disconnection if not seeing through because there is simply nothing else available, other than Oneness, to not see through.

Nothing needs to change for complete connection already. The problem is not including everything as Oneness, especially the things we don't like.

Hi Iamit

Yes, I hear you, but we’re talking about “the end to feeling disconnected from Oneness” (some might call that awakening.)

Nothing needs to change for a complete connection to Oneness - it's already the case. But the realisation of this requires... the realisation of this.

I’ve just started a thread to explore this.
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  #34  
Old 28-07-2017, 01:56 PM
ketzer
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[quote=Moondance]
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Originally Posted by ketzer

For a moment think of Oneness as a kind of creative Life-force or creative ground (though don’t take that too literally.) Anything that can be conceived of is always already downstream of that creative ground. If the machinations of the limited human intellect conceives things as subjects or as objects or as raindrops or galaxies, there is, by default, already participation in/as the creative ground in order for that to occur.
“For a moment think of Oneness as a kind of creative Life-force or creative ground (though don’t take that too literally.)”
I won’t, as anything said or written about Oneness, if taken literally, is always already wrong. Like the Tao that can be spoken or thought is not the True Tao. That said, it is as good a metaphor for something beyond words and thought as any other I have seen.
“Anything that can be conceived of is always already downstream of that creative ground.”
Agreed.
“If the machinations of the limited human intellect conceives things as subjects or as objects or as raindrops or galaxies, there is, by default, already participation in/as the creative ground in order for that to occur.”
True. Machinating oneness into named things is what the mind (intellect) does, and with good purpose. I see this most clearly in my dreams. Every “thing” in my dreams is not only the thing it is, but a representation/metaphor of something else. My mind brings things into existence and then plays with them in a drama to try and comprehend and understand some larger underlying concept playing out in my life. When I awake from the dream I immediately ask myself what issue or concept was the mind trying to understand, and what did each of the props in its play represent. The same (well... similar) can be said of the life experience in general, the mind is trying to understand something larger then itself by machinating things into existence and watching the drama unfold. And yes, whatever the mind conceives of is “already downstream” of its own creative ground. This is why when anyone says “think of oneness”, it cannot be taken too literally, as Oneness cannot truly be thought of, experienced (perhaps through the minds own machinations), but not thought of. The thinker itself is already downstream of its source.
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