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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #21  
Old 28-04-2017, 10:16 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
What are you certain (unperturbed) about?

your question does not apply.
As I said before: what I call 'certainty' is not about 'knowing something [as object]', is empty of a sentiment of truth, is empty of subject and object.
In what I call 'certainty' there is neither self nor other. That is why I called it an 'experience of imperturbability' ... which however is liguistically limited because there isn't an experiencer.

Let's summarize so far:
1. We do not share a view. From the concatenations of linguistic signs we apply in given contexts we can conclude that our views are different.
2. At first glance it may appear that we agree that "truth is a trap" but looking closer this agreement turns out to be an illusion. Why? Because the meaning of the word 'truth' is different for both of us. The meaning of the word 'truth' results from the different perspectives of our different views.
From my perspective any sentiment of truth is based on innate misperception which means that because it is innate eradication of innate truth habits is very tricky.
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  #22  
Old 28-04-2017, 11:02 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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[quote=Ground]your question does not apply.
As I said before: what I call 'certainty' is not about 'knowing something [as object]', is empty of a sentiment of truth, is empty of subject and object.
In what I call 'certainty' there is neither self nor other. That is why I called it an 'experience of imperturbability' ... which however is liguistically limited because there isn't an experiencer.

Let's summarize so far:
1. We do not share a view. From the concatenations of linguistic signs we apply in given contexts we can conclude that our views are different.
2. At first glance it may appear that we agree that "truth is a trap" but looking closer this agreement turns out to be an illusion. Why? Because the meaning of the word 'truth' is different for both of us. The meaning of the word 'truth' results from the different perspectives of our different views.
From my perspective any sentiment of truth is based on innate misperception which means that because it is innate eradication of innate truth habits is very tricky.[/Q}

You say you have certainty but are not able to say what you have certainty about. Very tricky indeed. Pleased that works for you whatever it means.

Good luck.

:)
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  #23  
Old 28-04-2017, 11:21 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
You say you have certainty but are not able to say what you have certainty about. Very tricky indeed. Pleased that works for you whatever it means.
I can only show you my finger pointing to the moon. But my finger isn't the moon. And there are other fingers pointing to the moon that are neither my fingers nor the moon.
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  #24  
Old 29-04-2017, 09:15 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
I can only show you my finger pointing to the moon. But my finger isn't the moon. And there are other fingers pointing to the moon that are neither my fingers nor the moon.
That is - by the way - a (buddhist) simile that is potentially misleading.
Why?
Because 'the moon' implies an object that potentially can be seen by everybody. Therefore this simile easily appeals to misleading innate truth habits.
However 'the finger' stands for linguistic signs and 'the moon' for an experience expressed with those linguistic signs which actually isn't directly accessible for a hearer or reader of those linguistic signs. However those linguistic signs may - not too often - evoke similar experiences in a hearer or reader of those linguistic signs.

Nevertheless what this simile nicely demonstrates is that fixation on 'the finger' ('the words') necessarily entails that 'the moon' is not seen but that for one not knowing 'the moon' there is only a chance to see 'the moon' if there is a 'finger' pointing to it.
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  #25  
Old 29-04-2017, 09:28 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
That is - by the way - a (buddhist) simile that is potentially misleading.
Why?
Because 'the moon' implies an object that potentially can be seen by everybody. Therefore this simile easily appeals to misleading innate truth habits.
However 'the finger' stands for linguistic signs and 'the moon' for an experience expressed with those linguistic signs which actually isn't directly accessible for a hearer or reader of those linguistic signs. However those linguistic signs may - not too often - evoke similar experiences in a hearer or reader of those linguistic signs.

Nevertheless what this simile nicely demonstrates is that fixation on 'the finger' ('the words') necessarily entails that 'the moon' is not seen but that for one not knowing 'the moon' there is only a chance to see 'the moon' if there is a 'finger' pointing to it.

Since by necessity we are communicating with words, that doesn't help very much.

But never mind.

Good luck
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  #26  
Old 29-04-2017, 09:56 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Since by necessity we are communicating with words, that doesn't help very much.
Who needs help?
And if someone needs help then for what purpose?
Words may - under favorable conditions - undermine innate truth habits and thus remove obstructions limiting one's outlook.

If one says that it is helpful to realize that there aren't any truths then one has to say in what way it is helpful, what purpose it serves. But then one would easily accept an alleged goal or an alleged attainment and project truth onto it, a truth of 'it is better than ...' and thus again being trapped, trapped in acceptance and rejection.

So I would prefer to say that when one realizes that there aren't any truths, that neither oneself nor other phenomena do exist inherently, one realizes that there isn't any lack and there never has been any lack and never will be any lack.
Everything is perfect from the outset.
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  #27  
Old 29-04-2017, 11:37 AM
r6r6 r6r6 is offline
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Book1 Perfect Exists Only Mind/Intellect/Concept

Quote:
Ground--Everything is perfect from the outset.

I disagree. I tend toward Buky Fullers viewpoint that all 3D, volumetric,energetic things are tainted and off center i.e, spin left or right up or down, positive or negative.

No things exist as perfect equilibrium of both positive and negative.

The perfect circle, or sphere exists only as a concept of mind, not an existent energetic thing of Universe.

.."In terms of exact measurements of 'roundness', they calculated that the difference between the equatorial and polar radii of the star is only 3 km - "a number that is astonishing small compared to the star's mean radius of 1.5 million km; which means that the gas sphere is astonishingly round", they report.

http://www.sciencealert.com/scientis...known-universe
---------------------------------------
Gravity Probe B
Database of World Records. The certificate reads as follows:
“The most spherical man-made objects are the fused quartz gyroscopic rotors onboard the Gravity Probe B Spacecraft operated by NASA and Stanford University. Their average departure from mathematically perfect sphericity is only of their diameter.”
Solution:
Create a tetrahedral lapping and polishing machine that brushes the sphere with micro-inch abrasive slurry in random variations. Result: Each fused quartz sphere deviates less than one micro-inch from peak to valley (25 nm), making them the roundest objects ever created on Earth.
Bonus Fact: In September 2004, GP-B received a certificate from Guinness World Records Limited, acknowledging that the GP-B gyroscope rotors had been entered into the Guinness


__________________
"Dare to be naive"... R. B. Fuller

"My education has been of my biggest impediments to my learning"...A. Einstein

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."...R Feynman
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  #28  
Old 29-04-2017, 04:44 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Who needs help?
And if someone needs help then for what purpose?
Words may - under favorable conditions - undermine innate truth habits and thus remove obstructions limiting one's outlook.

If one says that it is helpful to realize that there aren't any truths then one has to say in what way it is helpful, what purpose it serves. But then one would easily accept an alleged goal or an alleged attainment and project truth onto it, a truth of 'it is better than ...' and thus again being trapped, trapped in acceptance and rejection.

So I would prefer to say that when one realizes that there aren't any truths, that neither oneself nor other phenomena do exist inherently, one realizes that there isn't any lack and there never has been any lack and never will be any lack.
Everything is perfect from the outset.


If you cant say what you are certain about using words then thats not very helpful in an enquiry concerning what your certain about. The mysterious and spooky beyond words stuff is no good when all we have here is words. So I've lost interest but wish you good luck with whatever it is your certain about
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  #29  
Old 29-04-2017, 09:54 PM
RedEmbers RedEmbers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
You may never know what may be hidden from you that contradicts what you believe to be true. (See the parable of the highwayman by Soren Kierkegaarde).Trancending the idea that truth can be known is the only way out of this trap. The mind is then free to resonate with solutions it may find to the problems the organism gives it to solve, including the spiritual search, without the burden of the impossible task of first having to establish whether a solution is true


Cool... let go - get creative
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  #30  
Old 30-04-2017, 07:00 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6r6r
I disagree.
No problem. There are many views which may evoke disagreement.
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