Karma and use of medicine

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Samana

Kamma/karma means "intentional action" and is definately not some kind of cosmic punishment system! Example....if someone is rude to another person and that other person retaliates, its the direct result of the first person's action. (intentional action = karmic result (kamma-vipaka)

The volition of the first person is somewhat malicious and expressed in their rudeness (or intent to offend). This doesn't actually cause another person to retaliate, so it isn't a 'direct result', but when a second person does react adversely and retaliates to the first person's rudeness, then the intent behind their retaliation is all their own kamma, and has not actually been caused by the first person's rudeness.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Amanaki

Yes that is true. But i see sickness as a result of karmic situation, meaning if i get sick it is som form of karma needed to be repaid.

That's fair enough, but it's not exactly how kamma is thought of in Buddhist philosophy. It's not usually very well understood because people like to oversimplify, and it is oversimplified to consider an illness as paying off a kammic debt.



It may be true that the illness has arisen as a result of past kamma, kamma being the intent which creates the potential for the illness, but having the illness does not in itself repay kamma. Kamma can still be generated by one's adverse reactions to the illness, which is in effect planting the negative seeds of intent which will emerge in future.

But if its an operation the pain involved in it can be very hard to endure, so then i see it ok to use medication.

But in general i dont attach to medicine or no medicine. And sometimes in a family situation it is better to take the medicine and your wife dont kill you because of a difficult argument if you dont take the medicine

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

The volition of the first person is somewhat malicious and expressed in their rudeness (or intent to offend). This doesn't actually cause another person to retaliate, so it isn't a 'direct result', but when a second person does react adversely and retaliates to the first person's rudeness, then the intent behind their retaliation is all their own kamma, and has not actually been caused by the first person's rudeness.

If the first person hadn't acted the way they did the second person wouldn't feel the need to retaliate.
The first person causes the situation and the 'Direct Results ' are the second person retaliating.
Of course the second person doesn't have to retaliate they could just ignore the first person but they did as a ' Direct Result ' of the first persons actions.

Samana did say ' and the second person retaliated ' and then pointed out the ' Direct Result '

Now..... who reaps the most Kamma

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

If the first person hadn't acted the way they did the second person wouldn't feel the need to retaliate.

The need to retaliate isn't isolated to one event, so the second person's retaliation would arise at other times besides this event.

The first person causes the situation and the 'Direct Results ' are the second person retaliating.

Of course the second person doesn't have to retaliate they could just ignore the first person but they did as a ' Direct Result ' of the first persons actions.

I think it's more like a direct result of that need to retaliate, and an indirect result of the first person's rudeness.

Samana did say ' and the second person retaliated ' and then pointed out the ' Direct Result '

Now..... who reaps the most Kamma

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Samana

Kamma/karma means "intentional action" and is definately not some kind of cosmic punishment system! Example....if someone is rude to another person and that other person retaliates, its the direct result of the first person's action. (intentional action = karmic result (kamma-vipaka)
_/|\_

Yes – true ….. but why did that other person get triggered to retaliate?

Gem:

The volition of the first person is somewhat malicious and expressed in their rudeness (or intent to offend). This doesn't actually cause another person to retaliate, so it isn't a 'direct result', but when a second person does react adversely and retaliates to the first person's rudeness, then the intent behind their retaliation is all their own kamma, and has not actually been caused by the first person's rudeness.

“The whole phenomenal existence is unfolding in vast spaciousness” – Tolle
Ideally, me thinks – a Buddhist meditator would have enough spatial awareness to accommodate anything that comes up at any time and be detached enough to see that the rude person is doing their ‘rudeness dance’ all by themselves in vast spaciousness, displaying/unfolding his/her problem.
But if we retaliate, we in turn are displaying/exposing our problem, our Karmic ‘retaliation dance pattern’ all by ourselves within vast spaciousness.

So - is the problem a problem or is it an opportunity to - not take the bait personally and pass the ‘rudeness virus' on.

If we do not ‘freeze’ – it is actually quite fascinating to stay detached & watch a rapid dog manifesting its rapid dogness within a vast space. And if there is that space – it is equally fascinating to watch how that anger/rage when accommodated/allowed (by impersonal space) loses its sense of direction so the rapid dog starts questioning its own action-drama on that empty stage.

And I don’t mean it in the sense of passive aggressiveness: “Give a person enough rope and he'll hang himself” or “If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by".

A Mahayana Buddhist practitioner takes the Bodhisattva vow for the benefit all sentient beings:
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-bodhisattva/
The more seriously we take this intent practice, the more we are able to welcome negative situations to hone in on our ‘skilful means’ to neutralize karma, not only for the other, but ourselves as well.
Healing works both ways.

When the Universe in its compassion brings us situations that trigger us, those are teaching situations giving us insights into our own trigger points to work on. To learn to give and hold space for our own rapid dogness - to transcend the pattern.

So if we think we are “holier-than-thou” and think we can’t be triggered – we’ll soon learn otherwise.
Plus, perhaps ‘retaliation’ sometimes could be ‘skilful means’ – don’t know - best not rule anything out.
Like a person in an abusive relationship at one time has to confront the abuser and finally by ‘losing it’ be able to draw the line to say: “NO!”.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

Yes – true ….. but why did that other person get triggered to retaliate?

Gem:


“The whole phenomenal existence is unfolding in vast spaciousness” – Tolle
Ideally, me thinks – a Buddhist meditator would have enough spatial awareness to accommodate anything that comes up at any time and be detached enough to see that the rude person is doing their ‘rudeness dance’ all by themselves in vast spaciousness, displaying/unfolding his/her problem.
But if we retaliate, we in turn are displaying/exposing our problem, our Karmic ‘retaliation dance pattern’ all by ourselves within vast spaciousness.

Exactly - well said.

So - is the problem a problem or is it an opportunity to - not take the bait personally and pass the ‘rudeness virus' on.

If we do not ‘freeze’ – it is actually quite fascinating to stay detached & watch a rapid dog manifesting its rapid dogness within a vast space. And if there is that space – it is equally fascinating to watch how that anger/rage when accommodated/allowed (by impersonal space) loses its sense of direction so the rapid dog starts questioning its own action-drama on that empty stage.

And I don’t mean it in the sense of passive aggressiveness: “Give a person enough rope and he'll hang himself” or “If wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by".
you
A Mahayana Buddhist practitioner takes the Bodhisattva vow for the benefit all sentient beings:
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-bodhisattva/
The more seriously we take this intent practice, the more we are able to welcome negative situations to hone in on our ‘skilful means’ to neutralize karma, not only for the other, but ourselves as well.
Healing works both ways.

When the Universe in its compassion brings us situations that trigger us, those are teaching situations giving us insights into our own trigger points to work on. To learn to give and hold space for our own rapid dogness - to transcend the pattern.

So if we think we are “holier-than-thou” and think we can’t be triggered – we’ll soon learn otherwise.
Plus, perhaps ‘retaliation’ sometimes could be ‘skilful means’ – don’t know - best not rule anything out.
Like a person in an abusive relationship at one time has to confront the abuser and finally by ‘losing it’ be able to draw the line to say: “NO!”.

Yes, and because kamma on the whole is a cycle of rebirth, it is a pattern of volitions which arise from aversions toward this and desires for that, 'volition' and 'reaction' can be used interchangably in that either or both perpetuate the rebirth cycle. There is a deep philosophy on 'volition', the cessation of which is liberation from kammic cycles. This is the general flaw in the dual action/reaction causality reading of kamma, as one does not generate a debt which upon consequence is resolved. No. One reacts at some poing to create the potential which will arise in experience as all the conditions come together, to which one reacts and thus perpetuates the cycle. The meditation is the cesation of all volition, just be, just watch, and don't react, exert will, have volition, and the potentials of the past will arise without your aversions or resistance and avoidance or your desires for a more wonderful experience. In your neutrality the cycle is no longer perpetuated, and the old potentials begin to 'burn off' as you cease to create new potentials. The old stockpile of past potentials, called sankaras, rise to conscious experience and continually dissolve away, and nothing new is added, and this is the process of purification, alignment, healing, or whatever you want to call it. But even so, the temptation for wonderful spiritual experiences can still arise along with disdain toward discomfort, and one has to be self-aware and conscious of all this, and know what is actually true of oneself within the context of the lived experience as it is.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, and because kamma on the whole is a cycle of rebirth, it is a pattern of volitions which arise from aversions toward this and desires for that, 'volition' and 'reaction' can be used interchangably in that either or both perpetuate the rebirth cycle.

Karmic patterns, subconscious energy patterns, samkaras – as in subconscious or semi-conscious habitual tendencies - all I think, speak of the same or similar things, the way we react when these patterns are triggered.
And according to Karma: “Who you are is a result of who you have been. And who you become is the result of who you are now.”

Here these samkaras or energy patterns really can get in our way of growth, keeping us going round and round on the same ‘level’ circling the same problem on and on, till we resolve them or it (one at the time) or transcend them.
Some of these energy patterns are more on the surface, some deeper in the subconscious and some can even stem from past life.

When it comes to early childhood energy patterns, those are very deep in the subconscious, hence difficult to change. We have to become conscious of them first.


I’ve got one and I know it stems from early childhood ‘external weather conditions’ – having to deal with a family member with a Narcissistic personality disorder. Always having to walk on egg shells, and just when you think the situation is harmonious and easy and that we have got communication going – BANG! Out of the clear blue sky, totally from the ‘left field’ blind side this rage of accusations come, which do not relate to anything happening and are totally irrational high emotional dramas about something or another you have no clue about, but are accused to be responsible for, guilty of - you name it .....

Ok. now I know what the Narcissistic personality disorder is like and why they behave the way they do. They cannot help it, so you just watch the patterns go through their cycles within the vastness of space and stay detached. Besides you have forgiven them long ago, so no blame.

But as a small child – how did I deal with it?
Well, I froze and had a lot of migraine headaches to stop thinking.

But now, no matter how far I think I have gone into “The Enchanted Forest” (Spiritual Realms), at one point or another I freeze and turn back.
I have got this freezing pattern, this 'deer in the headlights disorder', which I now think perhaps stems from my past life, when at times of extreme duress – I froze.

So what to do?
This has got to be cleared up without medication
Conscious intent to clear it up will probably bring external situations to trigger it, which is why we need them, to turn our patterns around on the spot of duress.
Besides, “how far down is this the rabbit hole going to go?”
Not really looking forward to it - yet looking forward to it at the same time.

[Alice_1]

Medicine is also a part of our life.

[emperorcow]

Originally Posted by Amanaki

We all know about karma and how to en suffering.

But as buddhist how do you look at the use of medicine for you self?
Do you not think about it and use medicine to get well, or do you know that the reason you feel sinckness is because of karmic repayment?

I would suggest that one should not take an extremist path in life. Focus on the big picture instead of the mundane details.

Medicine are invented for a reason. Just take it if you feel the pain is unbearable. There are many other ways of repaying your karmic debt. For example, you could take medicine, heal yourself and go out to do more good deeds. To me, this sound like a better way to repay karma than suffering in bed.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by sentient

Karmic patterns, subconscious energy patterns, samkaras – as in subconscious or semi-conscious habitual tendencies - all I think, speak of the same or similar things, the way we react when these patterns are triggered.
And according to Karma: “Who you are is a result of who you have been. And who you become is the result of who you are now.”

Here these samkaras or energy patterns really can get in our way of growth, keeping us going round and round on the same ‘level’ circling the same problem on and on, till we resolve them or it (one at the time) or transcend them.
Some of these energy patterns are more on the surface, some deeper in the subconscious and some can even stem from past life.

When it comes to early childhood energy patterns, those are very deep in the subconscious, hence difficult to change. We have to become conscious of them first.


I’ve got one and I know it stems from early childhood ‘external weather conditions’ – having to deal with a family member with a Narcissistic personality disorder. Always having to walk on egg shells, and just when you think the situation is harmonious and easy and that we have got communication going – BANG! Out of the clear blue sky, totally from the ‘left field’ blind side this rage of accusations come, which do not relate to anything happening and are totally irrational high emotional dramas about something or another you have no clue about, but are accused to be responsible for, guilty of - you name it .....

Ok. now I know what the Narcissistic personality disorder is like and why they behave the way they do. They cannot help it, so you just watch the patterns go through their cycles within the vastness of space and stay detached. Besides you have forgiven them long ago, so no blame.

But as a small child – how did I deal with it?
Well, I froze and had a lot of migraine headaches to stop thinking.

But now, no matter how far I think I have gone into “The Enchanted Forest” (Spiritual Realms), at one point or another I freeze and turn back.
I have got this freezing pattern, this 'deer in the headlights disorder', which I now think perhaps stems from my past life, when at times of extreme duress – I froze.

So what to do?
This has got to be cleared up without medication
Conscious intent to clear it up will probably bring external situations to trigger it, which is why we need them, to turn our patterns around on the spot of duress.
Besides, “how far down is this the rabbit hole going to go?”
Not really looking forward to it - yet looking forward to it at the same time.

Even with past lives, this life will show you where it all installed to activate it again.

Often these situations are activated through the parental source affected in some way where the empathic child takes on the issue and creates the association in behaviours as your show your doing.

So how far you go down, is only as far that point and it often arises, during the first five years. Two years seems pertinent to your case.