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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Death & The Afterlife

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  #31  
Old 19-10-2018, 03:01 PM
leadville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulforce
Consciousness is continuous. You cannot experience a state of "unconsciousness". The body doesn't create consciousness it filters it. Even if the body was never dead to begin with, the soul doesn't stick around waiting for things to improve.


Consciousness of the incarnate isn't continuous and I was referring to unconsciousness in connection with the physical body. Both situations end with the death of the physical body.

Death is marked by an individual's spirit withdrawing from its association with the body it formerly animated. Corporeal death is an irreversible situation. If an apparently dead body (clinical death) springs again into activity then that body wasn't dead in the first place.
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  #32  
Old 19-10-2018, 03:06 PM
leadville
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Absolutely. The journey we all have travelling from our mother's womb into the light has nothing to do with living. But it may well have been a fantastic journey out of the darkness.

Nothing to do with living???? Do you see a baby as dead, then, up to the point of emergence into this world?

Or are you meaning something else that I'm not seeing?
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  #33  
Old 19-10-2018, 04:55 PM
soulforce soulforce is offline
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Quote:
Consciousness of the incarnate isn't continuous and I was referring to unconsciousness in connection with the physical body. Both situations end with the death of the physical body.
Since I've never raised those objections, why is that relevant to the topic at hand? What do you believe in regarding the soul?

Quote:
Death is marked by an individual's spirit withdrawing from its association with the body it formerly animated. Corporeal death is an irreversible situation. If an apparently dead body (clinical death) springs again into activity then that body wasn't dead in the first place.

That's a logical fallacy. Death isn't defined legally or medically as an irreversible precept. Biological break down is a consequence of death, yes. However, death isn't entropy itself. It's the cessation of bodily or cognitive function. Any stage of death isn't relevant to the departing soul.

If the individual dies of natural causes, the soul will leave before the time of death. Regardless if it's corporeal death or clinical death, the soul will depart the body.
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  #34  
Old 19-10-2018, 05:21 PM
leadville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulforce
Since I've never raised those objections, why is that relevant to the topic at hand? What do you believe in regarding the soul?

I was trying to follow and respond to what you wrote earlier, viz: "Originally Posted by soulforce
Consciousness is continuous. You cannot experience a state of "unconsciousness". The body doesn't create consciousness it filters it. Even if the body was never dead to begin with, the soul doesn't stick around waiting for things to improve."


Quote:
Death isn't defined legally or medically as an irreversible precept.

Legal and medical values can't define death from a spiritual perspective. To do that spiritual understanding is needed. [May I refer you to the umbrella heading of this forum 'Spirituality and Beliefs' and the forum title 'Death and the Afterlife'.]


Quote:
Biological break down is a consequence of death, yes.
I'm not concerned with "biological breakdown" - just death.

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However, death isn't entropy itself. It's the cessation of bodily or cognitive function. Any stage of death isn't relevant to the departing soul.

Your understanding is incomplete but EVERY stage of corporeal life and death is relevant to the spirit that once animated the physical body.

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If the individual dies of natural causes, the soul will leave before the time of death.

Natural or unnatural death comes about when the spirit has stopped animating its body. The cause of a body's failure is irrelevant. Your appreciation is incomplete.

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Regardless if it's corporeal death or clinical death, the soul will depart the body.

agreed

Death occurs when the spirit withdraws from its former role of animating the physical shell it used to live in.
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  #35  
Old 19-10-2018, 07:07 PM
soulforce soulforce is offline
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Quote:
I was trying to follow and respond to what you wrote earlier, viz: "Originally Posted by soulforce
Consciousness is continuous. You cannot experience a state of "unconsciousness". The body doesn't create consciousness it filters it. Even if the body was never dead to begin with, the soul doesn't stick around waiting for things to improve."

You weren't exactly following my mode of thinking because I was speaking about the soul not the body.

Quote:
Legal and medical values can't define death from a spiritual perspective. To do that spiritual understanding is needed. [May I refer you to the umbrella heading of this forum 'Spirituality and Beliefs' and the forum title 'Death and the Afterlife'.]

Once again I've not raised any of these points. It's like we're talking past one another because you aren't acknowledging what I'm writing.

I want to talk about the spiritual side of death, but you keep anchoring this discussion on the nature of death itself. Death experience is a play on words because the body is dead, but not the soul. The form of the phrase is ironic in the literal sense.

Let's focus on the experiences of people who have out of body experiences.

Quote:
I'm not concerned with "biological breakdown" - just death.
I'm not concerned with death, but life after death.

Quote:
Your understanding is incomplete but EVERY stage of corporeal life and death is relevant to the spirit that once animated the physical body.


Are you able to demonstrate your ideas in way that it's not esoteric? From my experience, I've never read an NDE were the individual felt an association with the body after death.

Quote:
Natural or unnatural death comes about when the spirit has stopped animating its body. The cause of a body's failure is irrelevant. Your appreciation is incomplete.

You're misguided about me, because your conclusions are based on points I never made.

Quote:
agreed

Death occurs when the spirit withdraws from its former role of animating the physical shell it used to live in.

At least we finally found a common ground.
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  #36  
Old 20-10-2018, 05:15 AM
Busby Busby is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,741
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadville
Nothing to do with living???? Do you see a baby as dead, then, up to the point of emergence into this world?

Or are you meaning something else that I'm not seeing?

You are right.

I should have written nothing to do with life.

What I meant was that life begins 'by coming into the light' and life ends 'by going into the light'.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...begins-when-s/
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  #37  
Old 20-10-2018, 05:42 AM
leadville
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
You are right.

I should have written nothing to do with life.

What I meant was that life begins 'by coming into the light' and life ends 'by going into the light'.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...begins-when-s/

Without a subscription I'm unable to read the full Telegraph article but I did see it's dated 2016.
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  #38  
Old 20-10-2018, 05:54 AM
leadville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulforce
You weren't exactly following my mode of thinking because I was speaking about the soul not the body.

Perhaps you didn't express yourself clearly then.



Quote:
Once again I've not raised any of these points. It's like we're talking past one another because you aren't acknowledging what I'm writing.

Yet I thought I was, relating on what you'd written.....

Quote:
I want to talk about the spiritual side of death, but you keep anchoring this discussion on the nature of death itself. Death experience is a play on words because the body is dead, but not the soul. The form of the phrase is ironic in the literal sense.

My 'specialty' is apparently what you're wanting to talk about but the death process involves the very essence of our being - the way that a spirit animates the physical body and returns whence it came - that marks the death of the body. It's an essential part of overall understanding in my view, incomplete without it.

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Let's focus on the experiences of people who have out of body experiences.

OOBs don't have a great deal of interest for me.

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I'm not concerned with death, but life after death.

I've been studying that for well over 30 years, writing online about it for about 15, many of those years here on SF



Quote:
Are you able to demonstrate your ideas in way that it's not esoteric? From my experience, I've never read an NDE were the individual felt an association with the body after death.

I don't pay much attention to near-death events as I think they show very little for someone who already understands about life, death and what follows. And I don't find anything I write about as esoteric. With respect I have again to say that NDEs are not actual death, the cessation of incarnate life. You shouldn't rely on learning about what happens after death from someone who hasn't died.



Quote:
You're misguided about me, because your conclusions are based on points I never made.

I read your words - am I responsible for misunderstanding or are you responsible for not writing sufficiently clearly?



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At least we finally found a common ground.

There should be common ground as we both appear to be interested in the same fundamentals but we approach from different directions.
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  #39  
Old 20-10-2018, 07:06 AM
markings markings is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 619
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadville
We'll have to agree to differ but near-death is near-death and not actual death. Experiences may be similar to a point but can't be exactly similar in all respects.

NDE accounts can, however, be helpful to introduce some individuals to the notion of survival beyond death.
How can NDE introduce one to survival beyond death? IMO NDEs, by definition being only near death, how near is anyone's guess, have nothing to say about complete and total death.
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  #40  
Old 20-10-2018, 07:25 AM
leadville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markings
How can NDE introduce one to survival beyond death? IMO NDEs, by definition being only near death, how near is anyone's guess, have nothing to say about complete and total death.


I'm the administrator elsewher of an afterlife website and have seen folk come to us from a background of a personal near-death event or after researching others' near-death experiences.

Such events appear to 'prime' them and pique their interest in understanding more about what happens after death.
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