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  #21  
Old 30-09-2018, 11:02 PM
Samana Samana is offline
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Originally Posted by happy soul
Certainly one could have a lot of theoretical knowledge but simultaneously be an unkind person. Such an individual misses the point. Better would be to be kind and not have knowledge. Perhaps best would be to have both, but even that depends on the person. Kindness is important for everyone, whereas concepts may or may not be desirable.

The Buddha taught about the value of practising The Four Boundless States (Brahma Viharas) of Loving Kindness, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity. An excerpt from the sutta (SN 46.54) can be found at the link below:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...054x.wlsh.html


_/|\_
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2018, 08:03 PM
Nature Grows Nature Grows is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
Often we imagine Buddhism as a discursive construction built on scriptural knowledge, but that is the imaginary/symbolic system of organisational structures, temples, hierarchies and icons and ritual practice which sustains tradition through cycles of repetition. It's not an aspect of the real-lived experience of day to day life.


When we associate 'dhamma' with the institution and its textual foundations, we imagine dhamma as sectarian knowledge rather that the universal way of nature. My own teachers used to say if a dhamma is not universal, it ain't dhamma. When Buddha was alive and teaching, he addressed human suffering and liberation, and did not regurgitate the conventions of his society's former tradition. He spoke of life, which is ever changing, never repeating as if the universe was renewed entirely with each moment.


My time is limited, so I will return at a later time to continue this dialogue.

I don't really have anything to add here at the moment but I just thought this post was good an some other things in the thread too.


When we associate 'dhamma' with the institution and its textual foundations, we imagine dhamma as sectarian knowledge rather that the universal way of nature. My own teachers used to say if a dhamma is not universal, it ain't dhamma.

this part is extra awesome imo. Thanks for your discussions guys.

I might have quoted some other things in this thread but it's 5 am.. sleep...
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  #23  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:37 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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I don't think the "why" results in any intellectual conceptual answer or statement of "fact" like here it is in these words. .It's simply an evolution in awareness. Why am I not enlightened? Well we are all "enlightened" at various degrees at various times, it changes moment to moment. It's an ebb and flow.

Why am I not MORE enlightened? Because the cake is not baked yet. A apple seed cannot make an apple right away. It has to get in the ground and grow into a tree then mature over time till it gets to the state where it makes apples.

We will all become "angels," or higher evolved beings, eventually. It's just a matter of maturing, of time and experience, a "ripening."

An odd side note is "purpose" is a creation. Why would the "universe" or "reality" want consciousness to evolve and become more aware? For what purpose? What cares? Why not have a bunch of unaware habitual consciousness running around in animal bodies doing whatever their animals brains dictated? What does a higher awareness serve? See "something" or "someone" has to behind the game. Otherwise, there is no reason for it to exist.

Then the creation becomes secondary to the tools needed to create. Can a 5 year old design a new computer chip? No it takes more intelligence and awareness and knowledge. And there's the purpose. Whatever is making all of this, creating all of this, wants to create more, understand more, be aware of more. So it creates new "cells" in it's body of consciousness, and sends these into physical worlds and bodies to become more aware through the interaction. As the "cells" in it's body become more aware, it becomes more aware, and therefore capable of far more advanced creations.

This is far more mind blowing then we all realize. Within matter exists consciousness, self aware matter, self aware energy particles. That's what we are.

Quantum Scientists discovered that matter changes when it is observed. We are the observers, the creators, the maker of all that exists. As far as questions like why do we exist one is thinking too small and limited. Imagine human intelligence and awareness is limited to under 300....... the ones at the "top" of this chain....... don't think in terms of 500...... 800...... try 100 billion trillion. That's where the "sources" intelligence and awareness is at. It is "watching" and aware of trillions of universes and dimensions at once.

We are only tasked with being aware of what we are.... a baby step in the grand scheme of things.

But back to the original topic....there is not something to know, there is something to be aware of.
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  #24  
Old 05-10-2018, 08:51 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
My own teachers used to say if a dhamma is not universal, it ain't dhamma.

I agree that "if a dhamma is not universal, it ain't dhamma".

However, can that dhamma be expressed in words ?
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  #25  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:48 AM
Samana Samana is offline
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Originally Posted by Still_Waters
.. can that dhamma be expressed in words ?

We can see for ourselves that it can be expressed in words, by reading the translated teachings of the historical Buddha which can be found at the Sutta Central and Access to Insight websites. Actually reading these for ourselves, by-passes later notions of sectarianism, other people's opinions, and fake Buddha quotes!

Thank you for reading my post and may all sentient beings have peace and happiness.


_/|\_
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  #26  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:21 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Still_Waters
I agree that "if a dhamma is not universal, it ain't dhamma".

However, can that dhamma be expressed in words ?




In the sense that dhamma can be talked about, it is expressed in words. Where words are concerned there is a principle of 'right speech', and 'right' doesn't mean what is written in text is the truth so much as it pertains to the intent behind what is said.


This can lead to regulation and obedience to prescribed acceptable language, and it often does, which has a place in silent meditation retreats to ensure there is no 'wrong speech' (eg such as deception). But in regular social life that doesn't apply.


In the context of this internet thread, speech is necessary, so the dhamma would involve being conscious of what you say, and what motivates you to say it. The basic lessons of truthfulness, kindness and compassion are promoted by all religions and spiritual ideology under the pretext of 'good-will', which generated by a loving heart without malice, is an undying wish for the greater happiness of all living beings ('metta' in Buddhist lexicon).


So, you see, the dhamma in regard to what can be said might refer to the established Buddhist texts and what can be said about them, but moreso, dhamma is 'the way' things are said, consciously, with emphasis on the 'good-will' behind what is spoken.
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  #27  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:53 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
I don't think the "why" results in any intellectual conceptual answer or statement of "fact" like here it is in these words. .It's simply an evolution in awareness. Why am I not enlightened? Well we are all "enlightened" at various degrees at various times, it changes moment to moment. It's an ebb and flow.

Why am I not MORE enlightened? Because the cake is not baked yet. A apple seed cannot make an apple right away. It has to get in the ground and grow into a tree then mature over time till it gets to the state where it makes apples.


As we may consider ourselves to be the Sangha in the context of this thread, our mutual role is to create the social conditions which are most conducive to spiritual insight or realisation. Like an oven of ideal temperature, if you will, or the richness of soil and sunlight that apple trees thrive best in. This involves constant investigation of our own hearts, for there are times when slight tinges of malice or ill-will causes a lashing out, name calling, righteousness etc etc etc - which bring counterproductive conditions. Optimal conditions would involve the real-lived actuality of utmost respect and interpersonal understanding.


Quote:
We will all become "angels," or higher evolved beings, eventually. It's just a matter of maturing, of time and experience, a "ripening."

An odd side note is "purpose" is a creation. Why would the "universe" or "reality" want consciousness to evolve and become more aware? For what purpose? What cares? Why not have a bunch of unaware habitual consciousness running around in animal bodies doing whatever their animals brains dictated? What does a higher awareness serve? See "something" or "someone" has to behind the game. Otherwise, there is no reason for it to exist.

Then the creation becomes secondary to the tools needed to create. Can a 5 year old design a new computer chip? No it takes more intelligence and awareness and knowledge. And there's the purpose. Whatever is making all of this, creating all of this, wants to create more, understand more, be aware of more. So it creates new "cells" in it's body of consciousness, and sends these into physical worlds and bodies to become more aware through the interaction. As the "cells" in it's body become more aware, it becomes more aware, and therefore capable of far more advanced creations.

This is far more mind blowing then we all realize. Within matter exists consciousness, self aware matter, self aware energy particles. That's what we are.

Quantum Scientists discovered that matter changes when it is observed. We are the observers, the creators, the maker of all that exists. As far as questions like why do we exist one is thinking too small and limited. Imagine human intelligence and awareness is limited to under 300....... the ones at the "top" of this chain....... don't think in terms of 500...... 800...... try 100 billion trillion. That's where the "sources" intelligence and awareness is at. It is "watching" and aware of trillions of universes and dimensions at once.

We are only tasked with being aware of what we are.... a baby step in the grand scheme of things.

But back to the original topic....there is not something to know, there is something to be aware of.




Yes. The things I speak of as are founded in self-awareness - with honesty - which is true to life, in every moment, and described here as 'tacit'.


This is a 'tacit knowledge'. A knowledge which can't realistically be written down, yet might be impressed or discovered through subtext of the conversation...
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  #28  
Old 06-10-2018, 12:52 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
In the sense that dhamma can be talked about, it is expressed in words. Where words are concerned there is a principle of 'right speech', and 'right' doesn't mean what is written in text is the truth so much as it pertains to the intent behind what is said.


This can lead to regulation and obedience to prescribed acceptable language, and it often does, which has a place in silent meditation retreats to ensure there is no 'wrong speech' (eg such as deception). But in regular social life that doesn't apply.


In the context of this internet thread, speech is necessary, so the dhamma would involve being conscious of what you say, and what motivates you to say it. The basic lessons of truthfulness, kindness and compassion are promoted by all religions and spiritual ideology under the pretext of 'good-will', which generated by a loving heart without malice, is an undying wish for the greater happiness of all living beings ('metta' in Buddhist lexicon).


So, you see, the dhamma in regard to what can be said might refer to the established Buddhist texts and what can be said about them, but moreso, dhamma is 'the way' things are said, consciously, with emphasis on the 'good-will' behind what is spoken.


As you correctly pointed out, "in the context of this internet thread, speech is necessary". However, although it is not possible here, communication without speech is far more effective.

When I was at a Taoist monastery in Chengdu (China) many years ago, I had questions for the monks (through an interpreter) that were not answered to my satisfaction. There was a similar problem with the head monk. I was then referred to the master and admitted to his presence albeit without my interpreter. It is not clear whether the master spoke English or not but it did not matter. I was in his presence for about three hours with no words being spoken yet all my "questions" were answered to my satisfaction until I had nothing more on my mind.

A similar silent communication just happened between me and a great soul at the Khumba Mela in Haridwar (India) in 1998. The silent communication was far more effective than anything that I have either read or have heard where words were utilized.

Having said that, the Buddhist texts have been very helpful .... until one no longer needs them. Over time, I have noticed that the self-realized great souls are, more often than not, more quiet and speak less than others. Nisargadatta Maharaj points out that there are numerous primary teachers to teach the alphabet.
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  #29  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:01 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Still_Waters
As you correctly pointed out, "in the context of this internet thread, speech is necessary". However, although it is not possible here, communication without speech is far more effective.


In some situations it can be more effective to communicate without talking... but I wouldn't say that's generally true...


Quote:
When I was at a Taoist monastery in Chengdu (China) many years ago, I had questions for the monks (through an interpreter) that were not answered to my satisfaction. There was a similar problem with the head monk. I was then referred to the master and admitted to his presence albeit without my interpreter. It is not clear whether the master spoke English or not but it did not matter. I was in his presence for about three hours with no words being spoken yet all my "questions" were answered to my satisfaction until I had nothing more on my mind.

A similar silent communication just happened between me and a great soul at the Khumba Mela in Haridwar (India) in 1998. The silent communication was far more effective than anything that I have either read or have heard where words were utilized.

Having said that, the Buddhist texts have been very helpful .... until one no longer needs them. Over time, I have noticed that the self-realized great souls are, more often than not, more quiet and speak less than others. Nisargadatta Maharaj points out that there are numerous primary teachers to teach the alphabet.



That sounds great to have the experience of a Taoist monastery and in India.
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  #30  
Old 12-10-2018, 01:18 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
In some situations it can be more effective to communicate without talking... but I wouldn't say that's generally true...





That sounds great to have the experience of a Taoist monastery and in India.


The experiences at the Taoist monastery and at the Khumba Mela in India were indeed life-transforming along with other experiences. One eventually realizes that all things are virtually possible when one aligns with the Source.
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