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  #1  
Old 17-08-2018, 12:17 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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The tacit nature of Buddhist living

Often we imagine Buddhism as a discursive construction built on scriptural knowledge, but that is the imaginary/symbolic system of organisational structures, temples, hierarchies and icons and ritual practice which sustains tradition through cycles of repetition. It's not an aspect of the real-lived experience of day to day life.


When we associate 'dhamma' with the institution and its textual foundations, we imagine dhamma as sectarian knowledge rather that the universal way of nature. My own teachers used to say if a dhamma is not universal, it ain't dhamma. When Buddha was alive and teaching, he addressed human suffering and liberation, and did not regurgitate the conventions of his society's former tradition. He spoke of life, which is ever changing, never repeating as if the universe was renewed entirely with each moment.


My time is limited, so I will return at a later time to continue this dialogue.
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  #2  
Old 17-08-2018, 01:35 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Often we imagine Buddhism as a discursive construction built on scriptural knowledge, but that is the imaginary/symbolic system of organisational structures, temples, hierarchies and icons and ritual practice which sustains tradition through cycles of repetition. It's not an aspect of the real-lived experience of day to day life.


When we associate 'dhamma' with the institution and its textual foundations, we imagine dhamma as sectarian knowledge rather that the universal way of nature. My own teachers used to say if a dhamma is not universal, it ain't dhamma. When Buddha was alive and teaching, he addressed human suffering and liberation, and did not regurgitate the conventions of his society's former tradition. He spoke of life, which is ever changing, never repeating as if the universe was renewed entirely with each moment.


My time is limited, so I will return at a later time to continue this dialogue.


If Buddha did as you are sharing, why are others locked into the concepts and knowledge as such?
At what point in the process of studying the knowledge or concepts, would someone reach this awareness, to know and understand this point your making? Or is it overlooked by many who let the concepts become their favoured talking point?
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  #3  
Old 18-08-2018, 06:30 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
If Buddha did as you are sharing, why are others locked into the concepts and knowledge as such?


The lust for power.


If we consider the word 'authority', it has two meanings. 1) Someone in a position of power and; 2) An expert with great knowledge.


Those who lust 'authority' need a knowledge base from which to exert power, so their motive to pore over text which is socially sanctioned as knowledge usually entails the desire to hold the powerful expert position



Knowledge is power and that's just the way it is, so those of us who deal with knowledge are in an ethical position because power comes with responsibilities.


The typical trend of quoting scripture to fortify one's own view point is the pleasure of power. Those who do that also show other signs of getting a leg over you though their 'you language' which is almost always a deficit based narrative. Saying derisive personal things invalidates the person, so that we may disregard all that say. Of course, I would have to assume a position of authority to assert anything - I become the expert on you, hence I know you are are a this or that, and you become the known as I become the knower.


Knowledge and power is different completely to the truth and influence - the latter truth is what fosters honesty and trust which are the appropriate conditions for the flourishing Sangha. This is where my discussion isn;t like an expert's discussion, because I speak to the real-lived virtue, truthfulness, honesty, trust rather that the rigours of all the stuff I know about Buddhist philosophy.I like all sides, the real-lived and the philosophy of Buddhism, but the greatness of human beings is virtue - not what they know.


Kindheartedness, truthfulness, genuine interest in their voices... and the greater outcomes of mutual trust and compassion which enables greater depths of relation, virtue, integrity and the actual way we live.



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At what point in the process of studying the knowledge or concepts, would someone reach this awareness, to know and understand this point your making? Or is it overlooked by many who let the concepts become their favoured talking point?




I like the philosophy, and as a knowledge, it's just 'the teachings say this', 'the teaching say that', but I'm not one to say it is true, I am the one to say is only a meaning, not a true meaning, a meaning which has a wide array of facets which may actually be relevant to individual lives in differing ways.


I'm really talking about that 'real-life' aspect, which isn't obedient to any authority or trivialised by conformity to an imagined Buddhist ideal, but actualised by deep honesty in self inquiry. Not controlled by discipline and will, but managed through self-awareness - and all these things are so multidimensional, delicate and sensitive - so it inspires a tremendous amount of care.


The truth of the heart... the real truth - the only truth that matters, and has real meaning.
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Old 19-08-2018, 02:35 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
The lust for power.

Ok that would make sense. The ego latches onto the source it seeks through, which is really only a building tool to understand yourself as deep as you go into yourself.

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If we consider the word 'authority', it has two meanings. 1) Someone in a position of power and; 2) An expert with great knowledge.

Yes.


Quote:
Those who lust 'authority' need a knowledge base from which to exert power, so their motive to pore over text which is socially sanctioned as knowledge usually entails the desire to hold the powerful expert position

The ego will often draw one into the stranglehold of such things until one learns the deeper lessons of humility within their own lived experience. I suspect also, its confidence boosting to practice leading in this way. To become the teacher (your own) or master yourself, there are many ways we practice as our own lead. As I have learned for myself and have seen in many seekers, they are taking back their own power through many systems that have conditioned them and taken away from them, their own self empowerment. So I do see it, it can be a positive upliftment to your own empowerment, but naturally it would be wise not to stay locked into this 'way'. I do recall through my own process, always having the rug pulled out from under me when I believed I 'knew' the truth or positioned myself in such a way, where I wasn't grounded in humility. It seems to me, developing a humble heart supports one/me to always listen to my inner teacher self to know that my words and sharing are coming through a more empowered self, not necessarily one seeking to be in power.



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Knowledge is power and that's just the way it is, so those of us who deal with knowledge are in an ethical position because power comes with responsibilities.

Yes of course, knowledge definitely is power, but those same responsibilities and ethics would apply to the lived experience if one is open to themselves to learn and grow this way. In the end I am aware its more important that I lead myself as this importance I see and notice more integrated as my own true self.

In this way, I become the story and energy, the awareness and the practice without needing to dictate what is important or "should" be. What is known to be ethical or what one needs to be more aware and responsible for in this world, is then integrated and I lead as the wisdom and clarity I build for myself.

I was watching David Carradine in Kung Fu yesterday. It was a favourite show as a child. Even though he was only playing a role, it was inspiring and very true to how the lived experience could become. Little did I realize it was my own deeper understanding, for myself, coming. His presence and movements were always centred in his true nature, which meant all actions were aware of others more inclusive of his own true nature, but it was through the wisdom that he lead himself, rather than what he perceived as lacking, or important. In this way, there are no arguments, no conflicts within himself, no need to state the obvious, but rather become all that as himself. :)

Quote:
The typical trend of quoting scripture to fortify one's own view point is the pleasure of power. Those who do that also show other signs of getting a leg over you though their 'you language' which is almost always a deficit based narrative. Saying derisive personal things invalidates the person, so that we may disregard all that say. Of course, I would have to assume a position of authority to assert anything - I become the expert on you, hence I know you are are a this or that, and you become the known as I become the knower.

Yes I get it, but at some point one would have to drop this as the one looking into all this and source something within their own process to end this story, yes? There is two sides in this view your offering, yet all sides are within to cease and integrate deeper as one's true nature. I know your showing an important view, but this view as I see it, supports you first and foremost as your own integration. In all deficits I see, in all invalidations I see, in all positions of authority I see, in all experts I see, in all knowing, known or unknown I see, I am there seeing myself.
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Knowledge and power is different completely to the truth and influence - the latter truth is what fosters honesty and trust which are the appropriate conditions for the flourishing Sangha. This is where my discussion isn;t like an expert's discussion, because I speak to the real-lived virtue, truthfulness, honesty, trust rather that the rigours of all the stuff I know about Buddhist philosophy.I like all sides, the real-lived and the philosophy of Buddhism, but the greatness of human beings is virtue - not what they know.

The greatness of human beings is Virtue-Gem

What people know is important to themselves and their own process. Eventually as time and progress moves them into life and experiences, all sides do fall away, but that takes time, age and experience to bring into being. One aspect of learning I integrated into my own wisdom, is that everyone is doing their best where they are and with what they have. We cannot see what we cannot see, feel what we haven't feel, explored what we haven't explored, be aware of what there is to be aware of in us. It takes time and process for all things to come to be and unfold for each one of us.

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Kindheartedness, truthfulness, genuine interest in their voices... and the greater outcomes of mutual trust and compassion which enables greater depths of relation, virtue, integrity and the actual way we live.

This is "felt" through the person and I understand. When one is only showing knowledge and concepts and forgetting that they themselves exist within all that, sometimes it is through those that understand "people matter too" that they too can learn another way of being, or simply take a little bit of that wisdom and bring to life something new for themselves.





Quote:

I like the philosophy, and as a knowledge, it's just 'the teachings say this', 'the teaching say that', but I'm not one to say it is true, I am the one to say is only a meaning, not a true meaning, a meaning which has a wide array of facets which may actually be relevant to individual lives in differing ways.

WE create our own meaning through many streams of our lived experience. Each of us are very unique, living very unique lives, so its important to understand my way and my life is not another's. There is a thread of course, that binds us all as an interconnected world, yet within all this, there is much more that we can become aware of for ourselves and others as one.

Quote:
I'm really talking about that 'real-life' aspect, which isn't obedient to any authority or trivialised by conformity to an imagined Buddhist ideal, but actualised by deep honesty in self inquiry. Not controlled by discipline and will, but managed through self-awareness - and all these things are so multidimensional, delicate and sensitive - so it inspires a tremendous amount of care.

Yes I am on the same page as you. There is so much moving through the whole stream of our awareness when open and aware of such things. For those yet to know, become self aware of those many streams, it is really only myself that can lead and model the wisdom it creates in me. Developing the realizations is important as is actualizing them into the life experience, imo, there is no other way to bring a greater clarity and wisdom alive in yourself. And of course as you know and I know, those truths deepen when we interact with other life as other life is. My truth is ever expanding into a greater awareness as I actualize myself into the world. As David was showing me yesterday, in many ways he had no choice but to battle and protect himself and others, the way life was, but as a presence grounded and aware, he conserved more energy by not entertaining the 'drama' and the 'truth' as he knew it 'could be'. His eyes in this way became the energy and movements to support life and lead as everything he knew and saw in the world.

All sides are within and when all sides fall away, there is only life experiencing itself as a presence aware.




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The truth of the heart... the real truth - the only truth that matters, and has real meaning.

The heart of the matter-The matters of the heart.

Yes it all matters in my heart.
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Old 18-08-2018, 11:42 AM
happy soul happy soul is offline
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Gem,

Do you agree that, although living life in a Buddhist way, or also in the way Krishnamurti taught, is simple and doesn't require a complicated or intricate perspective, it can be very difficult to get to the point where one would choose to do that?

Suppose I said, 'Just be aware of what's going on in each moment, accept yourself as you are, and don't analyze things or try to figure them out. Just let everything be what it is, without reacting mentally.'

Now, whether or not that's a good example of Buddhist teachings, it seems rather simple to do, BUT, I've found it difficult to acquire the impetus to do so. I'm not quite sure that I AGREE with that teaching.

In other words, getting to the point where you're ready and willing to apply the teaching can be a large part of the battle/journey.

Or is FEAR what holds us back? Is the threat of loss of self/ego what makes us unwilling to practice the teaching?
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Old 18-08-2018, 01:43 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul
Gem,

Do you agree that, although living life in a Buddhist way, or also in the way Krishnamurti taught, is simple and doesn't require a complicated or intricate perspective, it can be very difficult to get to the point where one would choose to do that?

Suppose I said, 'Just be aware of what's going on in each moment, accept yourself as you are, and don't analyze things or try to figure them out. Just let everything be what it is, without reacting mentally.'

Now, whether or not that's a good example of Buddhist teachings, it seems rather simple to do, BUT, I've found it difficult to acquire the impetus to do so. I'm not quite sure that I AGREE with that teaching.

In other words, getting to the point where you're ready and willing to apply the teaching can be a large part of the battle/journey.

Or is FEAR what holds us back? Is the threat of loss of self/ego what makes us unwilling to practice the teaching?





' Is the threat of loss of self/ego what makes us unwilling to practice the teaching?'


Through practising Buddha's/Buddhist Teachings you realize there is no threat to loosing a self because by looking deeper you realize you can't lose what you didn't have anyway...
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Old 18-08-2018, 08:32 PM
happy soul happy soul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
' Is the threat of loss of self/ego what makes us unwilling to practice the teaching?'


Through practising Buddha's/Buddhist Teachings you realize there is no threat to loosing a self because by looking deeper you realize you can't lose what you didn't have anyway...

Thanks. I think that's a good point.

As ACIM says, to let go of illusions is not a sacrifice.
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Old 18-08-2018, 08:57 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul
Thanks. I think that's a good point.

As ACIM says, to let go of illusions is not a sacrifice.


I haven't read ACIM but your quote is similar to Buddhists teachings, you might enjoy this link, it's a little bit lengthy but worth a read, I think



https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...ema/bl095.html
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Old 19-08-2018, 01:21 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul
Gem,

Do you agree that, although living life in a Buddhist way, or also in the way Krishnamurti taught, is simple and doesn't require a complicated or intricate perspective, it can be very difficult to get to the point where one would choose to do that?


The philosophical side is complicated and takes a lot of learning. Life is also pretty complex, but the knowledge of living is more tacit because it deals with the nuances of culture, relationships and other delicate things. I think no matter how you cut it, life is complex, but Buddhist philosophy or teachings aren't important in the overall scale of things.


Quote:
Suppose I said, 'Just be aware of what's going on in each moment, accept yourself as you are, and don't analyze things or try to figure them out. Just let everything be what it is, without reacting mentally.'


Very simple in principle, but not as easy as it sounds in practice, however, since we can only do the best we can, that's as much as is possible. This implies higher virtue, though, because it has to be honestly and sincerely the best we can...


Quote:
Now, whether or not that's a good example of Buddhist teachings, it seems rather simple to do, BUT, I've found it difficult to acquire the impetus to do so. I'm not quite sure that I AGREE with that teaching.


Good point. To me, agree and disagree is fine on a fairly superficial level, but this acceptance and rejection only apples to principles and not to the actuality of living. If you notice what your pointer finger feels like, it feels that way and you don't agree or disagree, you are just aware of what it is like. That finger feeling isn't trying to make a point, so there's n
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Old 19-08-2018, 02:51 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Suppose I said, 'Just be aware of what's going on in each moment, accept yourself as you are, and don't analyze things or try to figure them out. Just let everything be what it is, without reacting mentally.'

If one can do this it works. If your balance within cannot do this and your seeking it, you will naturally find ways to build that internal balance to become this. A trained mind or open mind can do this. Where you cant it often shows where you still haven't attained balance within that issue creating a reaction.

Quote:
Now, whether or not that's a good example of Buddhist teachings, it seems rather simple to do, BUT, I've found it difficult to acquire the impetus to do so. I'm not quite sure that I AGREE with that teaching.

In other words, getting to the point where you're ready and willing to apply the teaching can be a large part of the battle/journey.

Or is FEAR what holds us back? Is the threat of loss of self/ego what makes us unwilling to practice the teaching?

We are all in different streams together journeying through life. I wonder in your questioning, whether it is because many are tapping into Buddhism through their seeking but not really undertaking the practice as a practicing Buddhist, following the complete guidelines of practice. So naturally you have people diving into the knowledge, taking out what suits them as part of their awakening process exactly where they are and opening too in themselves. You will always find yourself in everything you tap into, if you look. People who fill their mind with knowledge, (often predominate thinker types) do sometimes take in a bigger picture before diving into the experience to integrate those teachings or knowledge. In my experience of others around me, it isn't always fear, but more 'safe' once they have saturated all sources to dive into their own source.

Fear is part of the greater picture for some. As is staying in one space for a long time. People like to build a longer deeper focus in one area at times. Their movements beyond that point is often timing and their own process unfolding as it needs. Lots of these moments of showing yourself in ways you haven't before is character building. Many seekers are recreating themselves, so its a delicate and often subtle sensitive unfoldment. If you know yourself through many streams of your own unfolding, that becomes your own awareness aware of not only yourself but others as one.
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