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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Death & The Afterlife

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  #21  
Old 10-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Prokopton
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Wow, we're having a recrudescence of things we've already talked about, and I see mistakes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIFE
She is a practitioner of Zen, but interesting enough, discounts all things "spiritual". She vehemently denies anything connected with transpersonal psychology, the continuation of experience after death, and even that consciousness itself even exists."

This is disappointing LIFE. In the thread jump-started by the Hawking quote I certainly did link to proof that she no longer holds that view and is now a straight 'don't know' on all transpersonal questions. What you say is incorrect. It may not have come up in that thread, I can't recall, but her research is also now admitted by all serious players including her to be completely outdated.

If you would like links on this I'll provide them I guess.

Whilst it's still available for free, I strongly recommend people listen to this episode of "The People's Pharmacy", from about 21 mins in, which contains an interview with Sam Parnia. He is currently running the AWARE study which is a massive piece of research about consciousness at death, including NDE. It's serious science and I recommend it if you want to know the state of play on this topic from the research point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medium_Laura
These are things I couldn't have known since I was coding.

And of course this is repeatedly observed -- it's something like this which the AWARE study represents an initial methodical attempt at capturing. The evidence as it stands is strong, but not strong enough to make for definite proof of some things yet IMO. (Although my own beliefs are different, but of course, I can't prove them.) More studies are needed, and they are being done... I think a wave of them will continue to happen.

Meanwhile, my personal answer to the thread-title question is that they aren't dreams, if my OBE experience is anything to go by, since I always consciously exited from a state of wakefulness when I projected. The state in addition is not at all dreamlike but is in every sense one's normal/waking consciousness. Since veridical NDE means spotting physical-world events, it seems that the consciousness is certainly awake and able to process information in the normal manner. Furthermore, the prospective study of Penny Sartori found conclusively that those who recorded an NDE experience also were able to remember with clarity the details of being revived from unconsciousness, whereas those with no recollection could not, or only very poorly. The conclusion is clearly that the NDErs were more conscious, and indeed, the report tends to be that during NDE the consciousness is far more awake than normal.

Last edited by Prokopton : 10-06-2011 at 07:32 PM.
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  #22  
Old 10-06-2011, 04:13 PM
Prokopton
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"Susan Blackmore has recently confessed that her prior conclusions about the probability of psi and metaphysical consciousness existing being close to none, were not as conclusive as she thought and that she was NOT justified in ruling out psi after all. Therefore, she has taken an honest "don't know" stance and left the issue at that."

-- see: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts09.html

In this interview you'll find more interesting stuff about her current take.

See also Greg Stone's Critique.

“I agree that one cannot draw conclusions about the reality of psi based on these experiments.” -- referring to her own experiments, which have actually been meta-analysed and turn out to indicate possible psi. “I am glad to be able to agree with his [Berger's, the meta-analyst] final conclusion - ‘that drawing any conclusion, positive or negative, about the reality of psi that are based on the Blackmore psi experiments must be considered unwarranted.’” “The only honest reaction is to say “I don’t know”.”

-- etc., see here for more.
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2011, 05:19 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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That's my opinion, too ---sure chemicals happen in the brain - so.
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Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2011, 05:56 PM
Bluegreen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIFE
Susan Blackmore wrote a book about NDEs in which she says that they are just the activity of a dying brain. So yes, she would say that they are the equivalent of dreams- a flood of images and sensations due to brain chemistry.
There is a lot of support with this theory, but it is clearly unproven.

She is a practitioner of Zen, but interesting enough, discounts all things "spiritual". She vehemently denies anything connected with transpersonal psychology, the continuation of experience after death, and even that consciousness itself even exists.

An interesting book is the one by Pim van Lommel, cardiologist. He researched NDEs (his article was published in The Lancet) and changed from skeptic to believer. His book is soon to appear in English I understand and the title I think will be Infinite Consciousness.

One of the things I found interesting to read was that when a person repeatedly, that is with constant attention, focusses on an idea or concept, it brings about a permanent change in the functioning of the brain. Meditation immediately came to mind but also that this would prove why negative thinking is harmful.

Van Lommel thinks that DNA probably plays a central role in the mutual exchange of information between non-local space and the field of resonating and coherent cell structures.
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  #25  
Old 11-06-2011, 02:17 AM
Medium_Laura
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You might also like "Forever Ours" written by a doctor :)

http://www.foreverours.com/
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  #26  
Old 11-06-2011, 09:10 AM
Bluegreen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medium_Laura
You might also like "Forever Ours" written by a doctor :)

http://www.foreverours.com/
Thanks. I bookmarked the link.
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  #27  
Old 20-06-2011, 11:37 PM
Artaxerxes
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There is a connection between near death experiences, death bed visions and the holographic universe theory and quantum physics that is not easily explained away. Many near death experiencers say things that corroborate or remind me of stuff I've read about the holographic universe theory and also things I've read in popular physics books about quantum physics.

Artaxerxes
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  #28  
Old 01-07-2011, 01:49 AM
Jeff4freedom Jeff4freedom is offline
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YAY. gentle dove.... Someone who has experienced the Light....
I hate feeling like the Lone Ranger.
I've spent so many hours in the Light...
and yes it heals...
In fact it can heal those close to us (in proximity)
And like gentledove says,
not every NDE is the same...
and some may simply be dreams or whatever.
But if you make it to the Light....
you don't have that question anymore
then there is zero doubt.
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  #29  
Old 01-07-2011, 02:45 AM
LIFE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Wow, we're having a recrudescence of things we've already talked about, and I see mistakes...This is disappointing LIFE. In the thread jump-started by the Hawking quote I certainly did link to proof that she no longer holds that view and is now a straight 'don't know' on all transpersonal questions. What you say is incorrect.

What is disappointing? I wrote that more than two weeks before I even got involved in the Hawking/heaven thread. You seem to think that I wrote this afterwards?
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  #30  
Old 13-07-2011, 01:29 AM
skygazer skygazer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westleigh
I would turn that question around a little and ask: what if dreams are NDEs?

Because we have dreams every night, most people think of them as very ordinary, everyday things, and imagine there is nothing special about them whatsoever - they are just crazy nonsense produced by a sleeping mind which we can barely remember in the morning. But think about what a dream actually is. If you have ever had a lucid dream, you will know there is no difference between dream reality and waking reality. A lamp post in a dream is no less a lamp post than a lamp post in reality. You can still see every tiny stone in that gravel path, or pick one up and examine it. No scientific theory can explain how a human brain, a biological instrument, has the power to create an exact replica of the phenomenal, complex universe around us which cannot be distinguished from the real one - and not only is it able to do this, but it is then able to bend that reality to its own will! If we had conscious control of this ability we would all be gods.

So what are dreams? My spirit guides tell me that we are part of the spirit world when we dream. We can change our environment with our thoughts in the spirit world the same way we do in dreams. Unfortunately, the consciousness at the helm while we dream is our sleep-confused human mind, which is why we end up in a nonsensical little world of our own creation every night. I would agree that a NDE is similar to a dream, but with the vital difference that we are fully conscious in it, like the much-coveted phenomenon of a 100% lucid dream. Might it be that the hazily-remembered world you see as that of dreams is the real one and the dream is the world you are in right now?

Just some things to ponder...

I find this post very interesting. Don't know about NDE, but I've often asked myself, what are dreams? because of my own experiences I suspect that dreams are not entirely what science claims they are; just images and ideas that the mind releases during sleep.

It would make sense that we are part of the spirit world during dreams, if not all dreams than some. Surely, what happens to me most nights while I 'dream' is not typical dreaming. I know the difference between a normal dream with symbols and all, from a mini movie behind my eye lids.

Many a time I've asked myself... "Might it be that the hazily-remembered world you see as that of dreams is the real one and the dream is the world you are in right now?"
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