Why I lack belief.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by organic born

And me too.

Particularly the newer science of the last decade. Science is in the process of being rebooted into something quite spectacular and revealing. In some ways it's looking similar to spirituality., but without much of the baggage of previous culturally entrenched assumptions. Just the resent scientific learning as to how our brains work alone is far more satisfying that wishing we could "transcend", (as though that were a goal). There is now a place for meditation in science, but the observation in this case if for better clarification as to the means in which we think about things. Our brains are in evolutionary tow, and yet we're no longer living the kinds of life that our brains were evolved to contend with. So we need to quiet the chatter in order to look about us with a cleaner appreciation of what we're currently faced with on a day-to-day basis. You can do so with meditation, while "Transcendence" will occur naturally when we die. I currently have a job to do, wife that I love and kids to look after. The last thing I want to focus-on is "elsewhere".

Excellent observation. If you really listen and pay attention to everything you hear said in the conservation of spiritual insight is, in relation to the human mind and attention of its focus and maturity. This is something not everyone is inclined to do.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Dwerg

This one is obviously aimed at people who believe. The main reason I lack belief is not because I reject it, but because it narrows me from seeing other points of view. I'm interested in comprehending the width and the depth of life and this world, and cutting conclusions short with beliefs doesn't promote open-mindedness.

I'll also tell that navigating this world isn't easy when I'm constantly bombarded with people who wish to lock me down in their belief systems. Being locked down like that isn't exactly my idea of freedom.

As for spirituality and science I don't see a big difference. Both deals with growth and the hard questions, and I like science because it simply says "I don't know, but I'd like to figure out". It aims at the object of study rather than just hand out the ultimate answer. To me the ultimate answer is exactly just to keep learning, I might never really know, but the activity keeps me satisfied.

There are things science can't explain, but that I can't deny to have happened. This is why we do science in the first place, to figure out what we don't understand.

I don't see that you lack anything, btw.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by lemex

Excellent observation. If you really listen and pay attention to everything you hear said in the conservation of spiritual insight is, in relation to the human mind and attention of its focus and maturity. This is something not everyone is inclined to do.

Indeed. "Astrology" is about the study of people and personality traits, "developing intuition" is in the spirit of fine-tuning our connections to each other on the physical plane, most "channeled" stuff is about a better understanding of this life we now find ourselves in, and in "heightened dream experiences" (lucid or OBE's) when a "teacher" is encountered they tend to be purposefully vague when it comes to the stuff "over-there" and focus instead on the perfection of our "current" experience. In all the "near death experiences" the end of the party comes with the insistence that they need to return and continue with what they signed-on for. Essentially all roads in the truly legitimate aspects of spirituality lead back to the focus of that which is physical.

We-plan-our-lives-before-entering, what should that tell us!?

So the idea that spirituality should be obsessed with the afterlife seems to me a corruption of our original intent. We'll know fine and dandy what's-up when we die. For now we're participating in a process of our own making and it would be wisest of us to focus along those lines.

In this regard, science based inquiry, is clearly among one of the best physical-based tools that we have at our continuous disposal!

Originally Posted by Dwerg

This one is obviously aimed at people who believe. The main reason I lack belief is not because I reject it, but because it narrows me from seeing other points of view. I'm interested in comprehending the width and the depth of life and this world, and cutting conclusions short with beliefs doesn't promote open-mindedness.

I'll also tell that navigating this world isn't easy when I'm constantly bombarded with people who wish to lock me down in their belief systems. Being locked down like that isn't exactly my idea of freedom.

As for spirituality and science I don't see a big difference. Both deals with growth and the hard questions, and I like science because it simply says "I don't know, but I'd like to figure out". It aims at the object of study rather than just hand out the ultimate answer. To me the ultimate answer is exactly just to keep learning, I might never really know, but the activity keeps me satisfied.

There are things science can't explain, but that I can't deny to have happened. This is why we do science in the first place, to figure out what we don't understand.

Of course it depends on how you define 'belief'. I suggest that we all have a system of belief. If we didn't, we couldn't function. Beliefs are fundamental to our existence.
Here is the generally accepted definition of belief.. 'Faith or trust in the reality of something'.
So belief is closely akin to trust and faith.
To believe in something is to trust that it is real, so then we are directly confronted with the nature of, yes you guessed it, 'reality'.
Belief is dependent on our perception of reality and to Shamans and some Quantum Scientists..'reality is dependent on our system of belief.
Perhaps this helps.

Originally Posted by organic born

Indeed. "Astrology" is about the study of people and personality traits, "developing intuition" is in the spirit of fine-tuning our connections to each other on the physical plane, most "channeled" stuff is about a better understanding of this life we now find ourselves in, and in "heightened dream experiences" (lucid or OBE's) when a "teacher" is encountered they tend to be purposefully vague when it comes to the stuff "over-there" and focus instead on the perfection of our "current" experience. In all the "near death experiences" the end of the party comes with the insistence that they need to return and continue with what they signed-on for. Essentially all roads in the truly legitimate aspects of spirituality lead back to the focus of that which is physical.

We-plan-our-lives-before-entering, what should that tell us!?

So the idea that spirituality should be obsessed with the afterlife seems to me a corruption of our original intent. We'll know fine and dandy what's-up when we die. For now we're participating in a process of our own making and it would be wisest of us to focus along those lines.

In this regard, science based inquiry, is clearly among one of the best physical-based tools that we have at our continuous disposal!

You make some good points, particularly about keeping one's feet firmly on the ground. However, sometimes, for some people, the two worlds merge and the spiritual world proves an important factor in the dimension we're in right now. Experience with negative entities, developing a sixth sense, auras, past life regression etc. My gripe with science is that they tend to be very dismissive of anything spiritual, but I think whoever posted the quote from star trek explained it best and the overwhelming ignorance, and arrogance, of way too many "scientists" is just a tiny speck in the grand scheme of things. Science is SUPPOSED to be about questioning and learning but a lot of them have obviously forgotten that.

I personally feel immersing myself in spirituality broadens my horizons. It was easy for me to fall into anyway because I'm so sensitive. The danger is when people get so caught up in it that they forget to live, so it's about finding a balance. And if a person can't find that balance then I honestly feel they should turn their back on the spiritual side of things and stay grounded in this reality. Because ultimately the reason we're here is to live the life we have now, not pine for the one we'll have next.

[revolver]

I feel that science helped us to come out of the superstitious age, and much of organized religion is trying to put us back there, true spirituality is seeing both sides of the coin, and working with what makes sense and discarding that which don't.

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by Dwerg

This one is obviously aimed at people who believe. The main reason I lack belief is not because I reject it, but because it narrows me from seeing other points of view. I'm interested in comprehending the width and the depth of life and this world, and cutting conclusions short with beliefs doesn't promote open-mindedness.

I'll also tell that navigating this world isn't easy when I'm constantly bombarded with people who wish to lock me down in their belief systems. Being locked down like that isn't exactly my idea of freedom.

As for spirituality and science I don't see a big difference. Both deals with growth and the hard questions, and I like science because it simply says "I don't know, but I'd like to figure out". It aims at the object of study rather than just hand out the ultimate answer. To me the ultimate answer is exactly just to keep learning, I might never really know, but the activity keeps me satisfied.

There are things science can't explain, but that I can't deny to have happened. This is why we do science in the first place, to figure out what we don't understand.

its a nice idea but experience and history has shown that the majority of the scientists don't actually practise this ideal you propound about starting from not knowing. is belief necessary at all? you can believe in physical world phenomena but not psychological...because sight is not subjective but "perception" is. first see that difference before you attempt to proceed. its all well and good reading some clever sounding paragraph on how belief blinds but if you cannot even discern what belief entails, on different levels, physical/psychological, its just a nice sounding idea. theres nothing wrong with belief in what you see, physically, obviously.

Originally Posted by Dwerg

This one is obviously aimed at people who believe. The main reason I lack belief is not because I reject it, but because it narrows me from seeing other points of view. I'm interested in comprehending the width and the depth of life and this world, and cutting conclusions short with beliefs doesn't promote open-mindedness.

I'll also tell that navigating this world isn't easy when I'm constantly bombarded with people who wish to lock me down in their belief systems. Being locked down like that isn't exactly my idea of freedom.

Nothing wrong with that. I take into account different beliefs and some seem more likely than others but taking one particular option and insisting it's got to be the truth doesn't seem to be the best way to go.

Both extremes - atheism and theism are equally impossible to prove.

I like what D.M. Murdock the author of several books about the pagan origins of Christianity says about deism, theism, agnostic, atheist, etc.. that she can't identify with any of those labels, it's just a mystery.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by SkyeSpitfire

Science is SUPPOSED to be about questioning and learning but a lot of them have obviously forgotten that.

But then there are those who've been around awhile who haven't forgotten, and still others who are young and are lighting the fires afresh.

Science has been dangerously misused to promote the interest of large corporations. One might suggest that the entire medical industry is a good example of this, along with factory farming and the tweaking of animal genetics to create creatures that evolution would hardly recognize. Science is both a blessing as well as the most dangerous form of thinking that has ever befuddled mankind. Science has brought us to the brink of some of the most amazing findings as to the wonderment of being physical, and at the same time, has brought us to the edge of complete and absolute annihilation. There is no sugar coating this prospect. It appears that this contrast is occurring as a result of it's accelerated success in exploring the reality we now find ourselves in. We are still mental-based cavemen playing with lasers and atomic weapons, mixing poisons into the foods we eat, the air we breath, the water we drink. The tools of science are developing faster than our imagination can evolve in relation to the implications of such findings. At least with spirituality one can mess-up all over the place and only emotionally scramble one's own orientation in the process (assuming we forget things line the inquisition for a moment).

It is all about belief in one form or another. As danieltalis so intelligently observed; "I suggest that we all have a system of belief. If we didn't, we couldn't function." But this just highlights the complexity of it all. We tend to "anchor" our feelings of reality based on beliefs that only barely allow us functionality. We really don't know what it is to be human. We believe we do. Along with many others who believe in similar. But currently science is demonstrating quite successfully that we haven't a clue as to who we actually are. Any beliefs we may hold are purely convenient assumptions that we share in order to facilitate functionality. But at the core of things anything we tend to believe in is deeply misguided, regardless of how well intentioned we are. In short, all beliefs are guesses and are easily set aside when confronted with one truly "spiritual" experience. And yet it's that same spiritual experience that can serve as a pointer as to where to look next in regards to scientific inquiry. A true spiritual experience is "blinding". We emerge from it blinded because the differences are so great. So how do we help to mitigate this difference? We can move to close the gap from this end with science and allow the experience itself to speak for itself.

For someone who has had a spiritual experience (or many) then science would appear useful in a way that is quite different from someone who's merely looking into "what to believe". And with a spiritual experience one is no longer looking to "initiate" such a thing, one is now looking for the pathways that intuitively ties the physical with that which suggestibility dictates.

What science are you referring to exactly? We may be talking about different things. You're talking about science as how it ideally should be, but from what I've seen/experienced, modern day science is overwhelmingly closed-minded. From the self-glorifying ramblings of Richard Dawkins to a general psychiatric sector that dismisses negative entities as hallucinations, to an immediate conclusion that auras are optical illusions to a derogatory view of looking at anything spiritual as though it's a figment of the imagination, this is the science world we live in today.

So basically what I'm saying is that science, like every other major organized 'belief' et al religion, spirituality, has been corrupted by individuals. The intentions are good yes, but individuals have effed it up with plain narrowmindedness.