Can a truly spiritual person eat meat?

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Ya know what they say about opinions, ay.



Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

I wish I didn't but when the blind are leading themselves blindly in those kind of responses towards others, I have to wonder why they cant see themselves as such?

Is meat to blame do you think? Or is that no meat perhaps as the cause? Blame is a crazy game of itself..so I wont go there, just ponder and be curious in my questions..hehehe

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I wish I didn't but when the blind are leading themselves blindly in those kind of responses towards others, I have to wonder why they cant see themselves as such?

Is meat to blame do you think? Or is that no meat perhaps as the cause? Blame is a crazy game of itself..so I wont go there, just ponder and be curious in my questions..hehehe

Well, the whole argument is based on ethics, but ethics is a field of reason which might have universal underpinnings. I think when self aware beings emerge in the universe, then the universe takes on moral laws. The old universe devoid of sentient beings could be thought of as a bunch of atoms doing whatever atoms do, but when these group to form a living self aware entity like a human being, then we have super-sensory virtues like compassion truthfulness and so on, and we have the dark side, like hatred, greed, envy and so forth. It's easy to see a human being incorporates the good and bad of it, so the whole high spiritual posture of being all good is not real, but ideal. Based on the ideal certain ethical standards become 'very spiritual', completely ignoring the necessity of killing as part of what makes up life and death cycles. Hences when a large wheat producer clears swathes of natural habitat to supply flour mills, people prefer to ignore the destruction of entire animal and plant species so that the ideal of non-killing animals can be upheld, but the reality on the ground is habitat destruction, soil erosion, water pollution etc, causing wide spread death to not only animals, but their whole life support systems.

This indicates that we're more moralistically concerned with personal values than the universal ethics which arise with the emergence of individual self awareness. I have noticed that the earlier points I made about a hunting society ensuring the flourishing diversity and well-being of species were ignored, perhaps because it's difficult to reconcile killing animals as a part of wee-being. Foir example, there is a documentary about when wolves (predators) being er-introduced to Yellowstone Park had untold benefits to the overall health of the river system.

In traditional Australian cultures, pre-European settlement, people were hunters of a sort, but not 'hunter gatherers' per-se. The local culture would manage the environment, maybe by burning, so that food would become abundant for wildlife, spawning new growth, fruiting and so on, so food would be available to themselves and all the other species as well. It is a way of living in relationship with species in a mutually beneficial way, but it includes rather than precludes killing animals for food.

All the moralism being argued on this thread is based on modern food distribution systems, and farming practices which are not in balance with natural systems and destructive to local ecologies - but people don't go to the root of the ethical dilemma where nature herself is ethical in principle since the emergence of self-aware beings, who seemingly have more difficulty living harmoniously with ego-systems than the other animals do.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, the whole argument is based on ethics, but ethics is a field of reason which might have universal underpinnings. I think when self aware beings emerge in the universe, then the universe takes on moral laws. The old universe devoid of sentient beings could be thought of as a bunch of atoms doing whatever atoms do, but when these group to form a living self aware entity like a human being, then we have super-sensory virtues like compassion truthfulness and so on, and we have the dark side, like hatred, greed, envy and so forth. It's easy to see a human being incorporates the good and bad of it, so the whole high spiritual posture of being all good is not real, but ideal. Based on the ideal certain ethical standards become 'very spiritual', completely ignoring the necessity of killing as part of what makes up life and death cycles. Hences when a large wheat producer clears swathes of natural habitat to supply flour mills, people prefer to ignore the destruction of entire animal and plant species so that the ideal of non-killing animals can be upheld, but the reality on the ground is habitat destruction, soil erosion, water pollution etc, causing wide spread death to not only animals, but their whole life support systems.

This indicates that we're more moralistically concerned with personal values than the universal ethics which arise with the emergence of individual self awareness. I have noticed that the earlier points I made about a hunting society ensuring the flourishing diversity and well-being of species were ignored, perhaps because it's difficult to reconcile killing animals as a part of wee-being. Foir example, there is a documentary about when wolves (predators) being er-introduced to Yellowstone Park had untold benefits to the overall health of the river system.

In traditional Australian cultures, pre-European settlement, people were hunters of a sort, but not 'hunter gatherers' per-se. The local culture would manage the environment, maybe by burning, so that food would become abundant for wildlife, spawning new growth, fruiting and so on, so food would be available to themselves and all the other species as well. It is a way of living in relationship with species in a mutually beneficial way, but it includes rather than precludes killing animals for food.

All the moralism being argued on this thread is based on modern food distribution systems, and farming practices which are not in balance with natural systems and destructive to local ecologies - but people don't go to the root of the ethical dilemma where nature herself is ethical in principle since the emergence of self-aware beings, who seemingly have more difficulty living harmoniously with ego-systems than the other animals do.

Its difficult to go to the root of things unless you go to your own roots and live more aware with more choices as I see it. If someone addresses you in the way you were addressed, if they were living more connected to themselves, looking more directly at life without a divisive creation served at others, immersed deeper into their own roots, with more understanding of themselves as life, then naturally, what would arise is the truth of being and living more conscious of all life from within, not just certain life and not attached to 'stuff'.

I see the picture your creating and its very valid to the whole view, but unless one can reflect and consider deeper all those things presented, one misses vital aspects of how to eat, how to be and connect to the earth considering more than just the points they are making.

I began the process of conscious eating around the age of twenty four, it has been an ongoing changing process, much like my spiritual journey. If your neglecting any aspect of your own mind/body/spirit awareness, then of course ones arguments won't see anything within the whole of self that can be moved through life more consciously aware from within. My internal world decides for me how to be and most often its not about what is happening outside of me. I don't call myself a vegan, nor vegetarian. I call myself a conscious being, who listens to her body and to its needs ongoing as I grow and change, as things are and can be. Often what I find is that I need little meat in my diet, because I choose other foods that are more alive and energising to my body. But that is just me.

I have vegan friends who actually have issues with their diets, more than me because they don't do it through listening to their bodies, but because they are eating to fight against a cause. It wont work like that. One younger friend actually commented to me the other weekend, "I think your doing it the right way" by not attaching to your process any reasons for your way of eating. Just being conscious of your own needs tends to bring a simpler eating process alive as I see it. It isn't complicated, its nourishing and health sustaining for me in this way of being. When I truly listen deep to my own body open as things change and move differently in me, I find it isn't about anyone but myself. And I like listening to myself about all matters pertaining to my life now.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Its difficult to go to the root of things unless you go to your own roots and live more aware with more choices as I see it. If someone addresses you in the way you were addressed, if they were living more connected to themselves, looking more directly at life without a divisive creation served at others, immersed deeper into their own roots, with more understanding of themselves as life, then naturally, what would arise is the truth of being and living more conscious of all life from within, not just certain life and not attached to 'stuff'.

It's OK - the more spiritual a person needs to be the more othes seem less spiritual, so it's nothing to do with me really, it's just the 'very spiritual perspective'.

I see the picture your creating and its very valid to the whole view, but unless one can reflect and consider deeper all those things presented, one misses vital aspects of how to eat, how to be and connect to the earth considering more than just the points they are making.

Yes, and in this artifice we call 'civilisation' there are a lot of things going wrong with the available foods, which lots of chemical additives, sugar and salt overdoses and so on.

I began the process of conscious eating around the age of twenty four, it has been an ongoing changing process, much like my spiritual journey. If your neglecting any aspect of your own mind/body/spirit awareness, then of course ones arguments won't see anything within the whole of self that can be moved through life more consciously aware from within. My internal world decides for me how to be and most often its not about what is happening outside of me. I don't call myself a vegan, nor vegetarian. I call myself a conscious being, who listens to her body and to its needs ongoing as I grow and change, as things are and can be. Often what I find is that I need little meat in my diet, because I choose other foods that are more alive and energising to my body. But that is just me.

I've done it all from animal products to veg to vegan, but because I lift weights, I need a LOT of protein and stick to simple staples of meat, mostly chickens who I never signed a contract with teehee - lots of chickens who have died, brown rice, and veges. It's a clinically proven sports diet, so it suits my purposes for weight lifting.

I have vegan friends who actually have issues with their diets, more than me because they don't do it through listening to their bodies, but because they are eating to fight against a cause. It wont work like that. One younger friend actually commented to me the other weekend, "I think your doing it the right way" by not attaching to your process any reasons for your way of eating. Just being conscious of your own needs tends to bring a simpler eating process alive as I see it. It isn't complicated, its nourishing and health sustaining for me in this way of being. When I truly listen deep to my own body open as things change and move differently in me, I find it isn't about anyone but myself. And I like listening to myself about all matters pertaining to my life now.

Yes, it does seem that eating for a purpose, rather than a cause, makes everything simple. For sports performance in my case means nothing complex, just what body needs for strength, nothing that's bad for strength. I need copious amounts of food in a high protein diet to suit my particular sport. I did wonders for my health by eating a lot of meat and lifting heavy as weights. Prior to that I was basically veg, weak, feeling terrible and overweight. Go figure. teehee.

[naturesflow]

Talking to someone the other day looking into another vegan's space of being and she said out loud to me and someone else.. "Oh she needs a big steak to eat". It was in reference to her "look". I was taken aback but not surprised really. People decide how others need to be more often than not based upon their own ideas about them. The old saying. "Feed the man meat" seems to be a very conditioned pattern in some as I experience it around me. Even my naturopath said to me last visit. "Don't go vegan or vegetarian, I did once and ended up in hospital having injections to recover". I just listened to her but in the end I make my own mind up by listening to my own body. Its good to hear reasons for doing and not doing, but ultimately, you have to listen deeper to your body to decide for you. If something doesn't feel right, explore deeper that reason. If something does feel right then explore that style of eating, always mindful of how your body is reacting, shifting, changing, lacking, feeling and so on. I am lucky that I have strong intuition, my body speaks more directly to me about its needs. Sometimes I wonder why I am drawn to certain foods etc, but low and behold the reason becomes clear in time if I don't know initially.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

It's OK - the more spiritual a person needs to be the more othes seem less spiritual, so it's nothing to do with me really, it's just the 'very spiritual perspective'.

If anything it shows me how to even more mindful when I see things like this play out. But then I reflect upon everything from within myself before my foot lands in my mouth now days.

Yes, and in this artifice we call 'civilisation' there are a lot of things going wrong with the available foods, which lots of chemical additives, sugar and salt overdoses and so on.

Yep that is very concerning to me, reason I try to stick to whole foods as best I can.

I've done it all from animal products to veg to vegan, but because I lift weights, I need a LOT of protein and stick to simple staples of meat, mostly chickens who I never signed a contract with teehee - lots of chickens who have died, brown rice, and veges. It's a clinically proven sports diet, so it suits my purposes for weight lifting.

So you know the whole stream of eating styles much like myself. I play around with various ways of eating, so I learn more directly in myself how it feels and relates to me, then I build a greater picture to know how to manage it. And always looking ongoing at this much like I reflect in all ways of living and being now. People making comments here that haven't tried various "ways" of eating seem like know it all's spouting off on one side of the fence and believing they know best, which is silly to me. "how can you know what is right way of eating if you haven't explored it? I would suggest they might want to re flect, re think things before they do ay? hehehe

Yes, it does seem that eating for a purpose, rather than a cause, makes everything simple. For sports performance in my case means nothing complex, just what body needs for strength, nothing that's bad for strength. I need copious amounts of food in a high protein diet to suit my particular sport. I did wonders for my health by eating a lot of meat and lifting heavy as weights. Prior to that I was basically veg, weak, feeling terrible and overweight. Go figure. teehee.

Uhuh. I did a course a while back about how to eat foods as a complete protein in your diet, morning, noon and night, it opened my eyes in relation to how it might serve me if I were to be total vegetarian or vegan. If I buy meat I usually by free range, organic fed meat, not that I need a lot right now, but I am very conscious of what I am buying. Veg' s have a tendency to look a little ragged and thin at times, some, not all. I wonder if this is because they don't look at the complete proteins and iron rich foods more closely when not eating meat? When I am in/or have been in my vegan explorer's eating ways, I find you have to be a little bit more conscious, otherwise you can end up in trouble and start showing deficiencies in lots of ways. Not all people but some I have known, have ended up giving up simply because it was all to hard to put meals together that served them better as veg's.

Glad you have boosted your body and changed things around. Sounds impressive.

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Talking to someone the other day looking into another vegan's space of being and she said out loud to me and someone else.. "Oh she needs a big steak to eat". It was in reference to her "look". I was taken aback but not surprised really. People decide how others need to be more often than not based upon their own ideas about them. The old saying. "Feed the man meat" seems to be a very conditioned pattern in some as I experience it around me. Even my naturopath said to me last visit. "Don't go vegan or vegetarian, I did once and ended up in hospital having injections to recover". I just listened to her but in the end I make my own mind up by listening to my own body. Its good to hear reasons for doing and not doing, but ultimately, you have to listen deeper to your body to decide for you. If something doesn't feel right, explore deeper that reason. If something does feel right then explore that style of eating, always mindful of how your body is reacting, shifting, changing, lacking, feeling and so on. I am lucky that I have strong intuition, my body speaks more directly to me about its needs. Sometimes I wonder why I am drawn to certain foods etc, but low and behold the reason becomes clear in time if I don't know initially.

Good morning, naturesflow
Yes it does seem conditioning, perhaps the way society has evolved to make a person reliant on others for decision or opinion. I can't recall how often I've heard similar things like "Should I wear this dress or that one?" "Do I look right like this?" "I can't think what to do for dinner tonight - any ideas?"

And when people (as seems often in the UK) end an opinion with "know what I mean?" to elicit agreement. "I think he should stop eating junk food, knowadimean?"

So I suppose people sometimes render themselves vulnerable to opinion and there are plenty to give it.

Now...it's breakfast and I can't decide whether to have tea or coffee.

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Very well said.

Why thank you, how nice of you to say.

Originally Posted by Kioma

I'm really not all that spiritual myself. I would be hard pressed to give up meat. But I do respect those who do, and I can certainly understand the spiritual aspirant doing so. At the same time I feel there isn't anything inherently wrong with those who do eat meat. As someone so rightly said recently, the way is infinite - but for doing anything there is a right way and a wrong way. This is blatantly self-evident.

It's not that hard to give up meat imo, depends on the person i guess, some people ease into it though. "The way is infinite" yes i like that too.

Originally Posted by Kioma

India has a very ancient spiritual tradition. Like your guy who lives in a cave, the ancient vedic culture recognized that spiritual pursuits can be severely hampered by the day to day responsibilities of being a 'householder' so it was determined that the true spiritual aspirant would take a vow of poverty, swearing off worldly possessions and dedicating him or herself entirely to spiritual pursuits. These devotees can still be seen in India today, their sole possessions a homespun diaper, a begging bowl, and their religious aspirations.

Oh yea, i know about these guys, the sadhus of India. I really like this documentary about them, give it a watch in your spare time if you want.

Varanasi India: Beyond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB7kfnDKPEw

Originally Posted by Kioma

IMO, this bears heavily on the meat-eating issue.

Many people have pets which they love dearly. They do not eat them, because for them their pets are furry people, and of course it is wrong to eat people. I have had pets, and I can tell you that I have actually known some animals that in many ways were smarter than some people I have met. Yes, they can't talk, but they sure can communicate - and anyway some people can't talk also.

I'v lived with animals/pets before too, they can be smart, i think so too, they also know unconditional love, and those dogs with there devotion aswell! animals really are great things, they are our friends, i'v even seen videos of people who live with wolfs and bears, hippos and even one man from south Africa who swims with great white sharks, without a cage and they don't even attack him!!! These people all made the effort to understand the animals and make a connection, and before someone on here comes to tell me about a story where someone who lived with bears or something was attacked by them, yea i'v heard a story like that, it's normally when the person forgot or over stepped the boundary's with these animals, some people/humans would do the same if you where friends with them too.

Originally Posted by Kioma

The dedicated spiritual aspirant, sensitive to the sentience that animals do possess, sensitive to the oneness of all sentient beings, and aspiring to purify his karma and consciousness to the highest degree possible, will vow not to kill these beings. It is a spiritual act performed because of a spiritual aspiration for a spiritual purpose.

You don't have to take that vow to be spiritual. It is a very personal decision. It all depends on your goals and the consciousness one is attempting to cultivate. There are those who argue Jesus was a vegetarian, so the concept for the dedicated spiritual aspirant is not entirely an eastern thing. There are those who argue being dirt poor is not a prerequisite for being spiritual, and I can understand that too.



And as to the nutritional aspect, the ancient sages seemed to live just fine without meat, but that is becoming moot as modern man has supplements for just about everything, and has already artificially grown meat, and will even be able to synthesize vegetable substitutes if that's where you want to go.

As usual, it all just depends on what you want to do.

Yup thanks for sharing.

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by davidsun

yours appears to me to be so lacking in awareness and sensitivity that I could easily categorize it as not being worth regarding as such at all.

If you really wish to engage with me, which you have shown no 'sign' of doing to date as you have merely spouted rationalizations which 'suit' your 'self' (IMO) so far, you are going to have to 'rise' 'higher', unlucky in my eyes (because I 'see' you as being a spiritually 'blind') one!

Busted davidsun - this is where the mask slips...

I said previously everything is lesser or lacking which puts you at the spiritually higher ground in all of your posts. Lucky1 has never tried to convince you that your actions are wrong, spiritually blind etc but your quite happy - as are others to do so towards him.

The better man would apologise for keep calling him not-so-lucky1 because at the end of all of it despite the very careful word placements & brackets you show your true colours in the highlighted post.

He isn't claiming virtue etc he's actually quite humble in his posts & screen name.

I'm comfortable to admit that he's probably more "man" than I will ever be, possibly even more spiritual overall being on the ground with nature as much as he is.

The man that I have described doesn't deserve the negative energy directed towards him which is why in my "pomp" as you so lovingly claim - I have supported a fellow brother who I see not showing judgement or catty comments.

Before you start ...

The harder stance I have taken within my comments were in response to being compared to slave owners etc which are in context when you read the entire thread & not just the last few comments - the shield wall went up & I pushed back. It wasn't an attack & I have always said that I respect vegetarians.
I understand your passion for animals - I have had the same but enacted mine differently.

Are you the better man here - it's win win if you apologise?


.

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by knightoflenity

not-so-lucky1

Lol, that made me grin.