Will science ever accept?

[Busby]

Originally Posted by neil

Science can not back anything up, of a spiritual matter, because science can not sence/detect spiritual matter.

& who cares about science when you have self verifiable evidence of spiritual matters.

Well I do, as the world develops it will be a continuation of the mental and physical 'planes' as we recognise them today. And it will never be anything other. This is called evolution and takes places on both levels throughout eternity. Basically science isn't saying that there is nothing 'spiritual' in the world it is just saying that there where 'spirituality' should be seen, that there is nothing to be seen or measured. But, most of all it is saying that there is nothing supernatural in the universe, anything supernatural would go against all laws presumably everywhere - science has rigid universal laws at its disposal. Scientists whether 'believers' or not aren't silly - and they are looking for the same answers as you are but they base their search for information on that which is - how could they do otherwise.

Personally I have enough evidence for myself that allows me to be confident that we are accompanied by a parallel reality - in the sense maybe of Rupert Sheldrakes morphic fields. The real problem, the real sticky one, is how does universal energy turn itself or transform itself into sub-atomic parts and then into atoms and elements and then into forms. And, by the way, science does not ignore vibrations, science recognises waves as basic existences, waves which sometimes are visible as particles. You have a heart, you could if you like call it your vibratory machine. Night and day are waves, the Earth going round the Sun is a wave, all music is vibrations and thus waves. Spring, summer, autumn, winter - the four seasons are waves, waves and wheels are everywhere. Scientists know this very well.

At the moment it seems as if things exist only when observed - our greatest dilemma.

We must never forget the old saying mind over matter - therein lies the true story.

We humans have wonderful imaginations - therein lies another true story.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

The science which you talk about is normally material science . Now by definition the material science deals with matter which can be seen ,heard , measured .So it is possible to come upto some numerical axioms in support of material science .

So when material scientist hear about spirituality , they insists the same set of measurability for spirituality . They ask proofs , evidence and numerical expression . But this (arithmetic expression ) by its very nature wrong . Because the subject matter of spirituality is spirit which is invisible which can only be felt .So asking for tests of material science is extremely wrong .

Yes good points. It looks for evidence in the same way things in this world can be studied and validated by different people, independent of people's beliefs or background. To look for scientific proof for spirituality misses the mark entirely. Not only is it immaterial but it's also very subjective. People experience phenomena that are often not exactly happening 'at command' either. Scientists will just measure brain activity so not much else to do there.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Finally even social science like economic / politics / psychology too dont have numerical axioms . Yet scientist readily accept it as science.

This is generally not true. A proper 'social scientist' would be the first person to point out that they aren't doing actual science. They study individuals and societies, and understand these things are mostly subjective and very contextual. There may be psychologists and economists out there who still think they're ''doing science'' like chemistry or physics but that would make them fools. Originally, social science did try to imitate the natural sciences, looking for laws of the social world, but that changed a lot around the 70s when they realized they couldn't.. There's a bit of overlap in some fields though but usually it's not hard science..

[Joe6pack]

for those who live the lies easy, there is no problem. Others will move away and find their own ground . I myself have not met a scientist for years although I do not shy away from watching the odd cartoon now and then I do not belief the characters to have souls and past lives only real people do. shades are cast by things upon which a light shines , and the journey begins to a new world , to which many never arrive getting lost in all roads and side tracks , those few who do, will find and know all.

[naturewalker24]

Originally Posted by Joe6pack

for those who live the lies easy, there is no problem. Others will move away and find their own ground . I myself have not met a scientist for years although I do not shy away from watching the odd cartoon now and then I do not belief the characters to have souls and past lives only real people do. shades are cast by things upon which a light shines , and the journey begins to a new world , to which many never arrive getting lost in all roads and side tracks , those few who do, will find and know all.

The mad clouds have turned gray on the watch of the ancient nearness, striking 8 Zebra stripes with language from the Middle of a french village in 14th century Europe. Our animal is the light that shines from the hart of the mountain onto poor kings and lonely children. Peculiar?

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

Regarding the 1st post/reply involving Science : can we be sure that the immaterial/non-material world really exists? That there is more than just the physical world? (That spiritual experiences are not just imaginations/ fairy tales invented by ancient people as they couldn't explain phenomena?) Were the ancient people right about saying that we are/have spirit/soul and having spiritual afterlife?

Scientists would say that there is no scientific proof/evidence for spirit, or that the spiritual experiences are hallucinations, because when someone dies would go eternal unconscious/void, like before he or she was born) (Current science would say that just the material/physical exists going as low as quantum level)

To understand the answer we must understand basic nature of matter and spirit .

Matter - Shortlived , ephemeral , visible - finite
Spirit - Eternal -omni-present - omni-potent - omni-scient - Infinity

So by very nature matter will have forms , shapes ,colors , measurements and standardization. As against this, spirit will deny everything of this . As most scriptures say words can not describe the God / Cosmic spirit .

Now in arithmetic whatever you do on infinity the result is infinity .

So I would say the immaterial/non-material /spiritual re-alm exists. I am not using the word 'World' because along with that expectation matter in the world come embedded limiting infinite power/capability/possibility of the spirit.

Now I come to an important aspect of spirituality. It is not magic . It does not support casual accounts of spiritual visualizations for material short term gains (like many crooks do to dupe others by fake descriptions of spiritual visions) . Infinity in spirit enables one to do something real in life which defies normal material norms / considerations .e.g.

1. Wright brothers could imaging man flying when they saw flying birds and eventually made aircraft.
2. Einstein could visualize E=mc2 while studying beautiful universe.
3. Socrates drinking a cup of poison hemlock voluntarily.
4. Jesus suffering crucification yet showing mercy for the executioner

There are umpteen such examples in history of human kind .

This is the test spiritualists have to give to the world to be called real spiritualists. Otherwise material scientists will brand their descriptions of spiritual world as mere hallucinations and rightly so .

Normally we are individuals with short term self interest . Even interests of extended self (like spouse/kins / children ) come under self interest. For a corporation CEO the interests of his corporation also falls under self interest. The self interest defines our normal area/ sphere/periphery of work . When we are able to expand this area/sphere of work consistently and persistently through our spiritual endeavors and ethical pursuits , we can be said to be on spiritual path .

The ultimate spiritualist feels oneness with the world and feels world is just one family. And deep imprint of such feeling can be seen in his/her life works .
By such standards we may be just toddlers taking baby steps in the world of spirituality.

Scientists may say no proof of spirit . But almost all discoveries of science in last centuries are invisible like electricity , ratio waves , WI-FI etc . The way they justify it with its effects and results , the same way spirit can be justified with its effect . We can see / hear / enjoy the taste / feel the touch with spirit. Give scientist a dead body and ask them to make it alive, that simply is not possible because the energy / spirit is simply gone from the body.

[HITESH SHAH]

This is generally not true. A proper 'social scientist' would be the first person to point out that they aren't doing actual science. They study individuals and societies, and understand these things are mostly subjective and very contextual. There may be psychologists and economists out there who still think they're ''doing science'' like chemistry or physics but that would make them fools. Originally, social science did try to imitate the natural sciences, looking for laws of the social world, but that changed a lot around the 70s when they realized they couldn't.. There's a bit of overlap in some fields though but usually it's not hard science..

Probably i might be wrong on historical facts which you have elaborated. But in essence we are on same page ie politics / economic / psychology are soft science but still a science trying to establish cause effect relationships.

[EdmundJohnstone]

Thank you soo mich HITESH SHAH ! Really appreciated ! I mostly agree with you.

I am curious, what do you have to say about this? We can't see air, but we can detect it (science). In the same way... We can't see spirit (most of us) , but we (science) can't detect it.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

To understand the answer we must understand basic nature of matter and spirit .

Matter - Shortlived , ephemeral , visible - finite
Spirit - Eternal -omni-present - omni-potent - omni-scient - Infinity

So by very nature matter will have forms , shapes ,colors , measurements and standardization. As against this, spirit will deny everything of this . As most scriptures say words can not describe the God / Cosmic spirit .

Now in arithmetic whatever you do on infinity the result is infinity .

So I would say the immaterial/non-material /spiritual re-alm exists. I am not using the word 'World' because along with that expectation matter in the world come embedded limiting infinite power/capability/possibility of the spirit.

Now I come to an important aspect of spirituality. It is not magic . It does not support casual accounts of spiritual visualizations for material short term gains (like many crooks do to dupe others by fake descriptions of spiritual visions) . Infinity in spirit enables one to do something real in life which defies normal material norms / considerations .e.g.

1. Wright brothers could imaging man flying when they saw flying birds and eventually made aircraft.
2. Einstein could visualize E=mc2 while studying beautiful universe.
3. Socrates drinking a cup of poison hemlock voluntarily.
4. Jesus suffering crucification yet showing mercy for the executioner

There are umpteen such examples in history of human kind .

This is the test spiritualists have to give to the world to be called real spiritualists. Otherwise material scientists will brand their descriptions of spiritual world as mere hallucinations and rightly so .

Normally we are individuals with short term self interest . Even interests of extended self (like spouse/kins / children ) come under self interest. For a corporation CEO the interests of his corporation also falls under self interest. The self interest defines our normal area/ sphere/periphery of work . When we are able to expand this area/sphere of work consistently and persistently through our spiritual endeavors and ethical pursuits , we can be said to be on spiritual path .

The ultimate spiritualist feels oneness with the world and feels world is just one family. And deep imprint of such feeling can be seen in his/her life works .
By such standards we may be just toddlers taking baby steps in the world of spirituality.

Scientists may say no proof of spirit . But almost all discoveries of science in last centuries are invisible like electricity , ratio waves , WI-FI etc . The way they justify it with its effects and results , the same way spirit can be justified with its effect . We can see / hear / enjoy the taste / feel the touch with spirit. Give scientist a dead body and ask them to make it alive, that simply is not possible because the energy / spirit is simply gone from the body.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by neil

who cares about science when you have self verifiable evidence of spiritual matters.

Everybody should care because spiritual laws are foundational laws in the life of social well being (which impacts education , politics ,economics , ethics , science etc) .

To be able to appreciate one need to see the historical progress of mankind in last 500 years , its lead protagonists in each century , rise & fall of regimes , renaissance / reformation / restoration / revolutions / awakening / rejuvenation in their social life , fall of ethical/spiritual values in their social life . One can sense a deep co-relation between spirituality and material progress .

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

I am curious, what do you have to say about this? We can't see air, but we can detect it (science). In the same way... We can't see spirit (most of us) , but we (science) can't detect it.

Air is invisible but can still be sensed through sensory organs through breathing , wind .Anything which can be sensed through senses is matter. So air can be subject of material science (just the way electric current) .

But spirit empowers senses . And if you try to use senses to see/understand spirit its not going to help .Just if you want to see your face now , you need a mirror / mobile camera . Without any outside assistance , you can not see your face. The same way spirit needs a mirror of good books , scripture , mediation , inspiration to feel it .

Hope this explains .

[neil]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Everybody should care because spiritual laws are foundational laws in the life of social well being (which impacts education , politics ,economics , ethics , science etc) .

To be able to appreciate one need to see the historical progress of mankind in last 500 years , its lead protagonists in each century , rise & fall of regimes , renaissance / reformation / restoration / revolutions / awakening / rejuvenation in their social life , fall of ethical/spiritual values in their social life . One can sense a deep co-relation between spirituality and material progress .

Maybe you have missed my point. I am not dismissing science, I was very interested in science, biology, health of the physical body & of the earth etc.

BUT, since i became personally aware of all things of the spiritual, I personally do not care to listen to the science fraternity debunk God, spirit & or hearing, seeing, feeling any or all things of the spirititual.

So...who cares for science, if scientists disbelieves, debunks etc anything of the invisible magical spiritual....I know that i do not care.

& by the by...I know exactly what spiritual laws are & mean to all beings, who reside on any planet in any galaxy & or in the heavens, within this singular magical spiritual universe, that we all coexist in, in regards to the foundations of sociality, in & of life.

SMILES from myself...Neil.