"my" truth!

Originally Posted by Eskay

I constantly hear people say all the time "your" truth or "my" God. I never understood that way of thinking. That is like my blood brother calling our mother, just "his" mom when we are conversing. It's both of our moms.

The truth was my whole driving force to figuring out this life. The truth started my awakening and keeps me here in the present. So my question is how can the truth be different to one person on "Earth" and not be the same for another person on "Earth"?

2+2=4 that's true everywhere you go, but if your "taught" its anything else does that make it false?

'Your mom, 'his' mom, 'their' mom - all the same mom and the reference doesn't change mom but only points to mom. But there is a truth in using 'my mom', the truth of the relationship as he perceives it.

When you say 'That is the Truth' it's no longer The Truth. It may be an expression of The Truth and it may well have The Truth within, but only The Truth can be The Truth. The Truth points to itself and in its expression reveals to itself.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by VinceField

Can you explain this post?

What is the purpose of the first three phrases?

In the fourth sentence, are you saying that there are no differing views? Since you brought up some Buddhist concepts, perhaps you know of the Buddhist teaching of Right view and Wrong view. There are certainly different views, and in fact, no two views are the same.

What do we need to keep looking for? Are you suggesting that if your view is different from others, there is something you need to look for?

All of the Buddha's teaching lead to Emptiness Vince. The Heart Sutra is a great example of that.

So lets start with Emptiness.

I hear a lot about flows of energy, winds is another way of describing them. Once one opens there heart chakra and is able to feel the winds flow through body they can start to experience empitness. One resides as those flows and understands that they are empty. That those flows are you and the plants and everything a oneness. It is Emptiness of self.

Rigpa is a state in which one can reside. Rigpa is a state most often associated with Dzogchen a direct transmission guru based Buddhist practice.

There are kind of two "levels" of emptiness in Buddhism, emptiness of self and then beyond, the emptiness of ultimate reality. The realization of of emptiness of self is the stepping beyond the dualistic self at the local body mind level/layer. Rigpa is beyond that and is the residing in the base of ultimate reality (or the integration of all existence).

Rigpa is not "noticing" in an intellectual way, but is the "experience" of instantaneous pure presence. A realization of primordial bodhicitta where one "knows" that it is the source of all manifestations of energy/form. Where one is not a wave in the ocean, but the "transmission" of the ocean itself.

Primordial emptiness is like a bubbling sea of nothingness, brimming with potential. It can be most easily described in the realization of three components, but each of the component is inseparable. These components are Void, motion (or energy) and potential.

The void is empty with no activity at all. Nothing to perceive and nothing to sense. Like a totally dead sea with no motion. The nature of void can be found going deeper and deeper into meditation. The is a common goal in many traditions. But, it is beyond senses, lights or astral visions. All activity in mind (or universal mind) is dropped such that nothing is left. All perception is gone, such that the mind is still and for all practical purposes, one and everything "ceases".

When the nothingness of void "moves" or changes state, one has "energy". Energy has no true substance as it is only the motion of void, but it gives rise to something to be "perceived". In it's emergence, energy can be guided by "intent". First energy is noticed on a subconscious level, but with greater realization, it can be guided and affected. First in one's body, and later as greater mental obstructions are cleared on a universal level.

When one has fully realized the void and one experiences energy 24/7 in a conscious (controlled) manner, one integrates the two and can notice the "potential". The potential is the pristine clarity (or light) of the void. Or in more modern terms, it is the structure or raw building stuff of mind/universal mind. All that exists or potentially can exist is a transmission of this pristine clarity/light.

When one fully realizes these three components as integrated and inseparable, they have realized ultimate emptiness. One "sees behind" the curtain (of mind) and becomes stabilized in the primordial sea.


Ultimately, void is nothingness, energy is the motion of nothingness, clarity (or light) is the realization of the potential of it all that can be guided by intent

There is no debate about how I view Rigpa is different from someone else. That is impossible. Like I said if your view is different you need to keep going.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

All of the Buddha's teaching lead to Emptiness Vince. The Heart Sutra is a great example of that.

So lets start with Emptiness.

I hear a lot about flows of energy, winds is another way of describing them. Once one opens there heart chakra and is able to feel the winds flow through body they can start to experience empitness. One resides as those flows and understands that they are empty. That those flows are you and the plants and everything a oneness. It is Emptiness of self.

Rigpa is a state in which one can reside. Rigpa is a state most often associated with Dzogchen a direct transmission guru based Buddhist practice.

There are kind of two "levels" of emptiness in Buddhism, emptiness of self and then beyond, the emptiness of ultimate reality. The realization of of emptiness of self is the stepping beyond the dualistic self at the local body mind level/layer. Rigpa is beyond that and is the residing in the base of ultimate reality (or the integration of all existence).

Rigpa is not "noticing" in an intellectual way, but is the "experience" of instantaneous pure presence. A realization of primordial bodhicitta where one "knows" that it is the source of all manifestations of energy/form. Where one is not a wave in the ocean, but the "transmission" of the ocean itself.

Primordial emptiness is like a bubbling sea of nothingness, brimming with potential. It can be most easily described in the realization of three components, but each of the component is inseparable. These components are Void, motion (or energy) and potential.

The void is empty with no activity at all. Nothing to perceive and nothing to sense. Like a totally dead sea with no motion. The nature of void can be found going deeper and deeper into meditation. The is a common goal in many traditions. But, it is beyond senses, lights or astral visions. All activity in mind (or universal mind) is dropped such that nothing is left. All perception is gone, such that the mind is still and for all practical purposes, one and everything "ceases".

When the nothingness of void "moves" or changes state, one has "energy". Energy has no true substance as it is only the motion of void, but it gives rise to something to be "perceived". In it's emergence, energy can be guided by "intent". First energy is noticed on a subconscious level, but with greater realization, it can be guided and affected. First in one's body, and later as greater mental obstructions are cleared on a universal level.

When one has fully realized the void and one experiences energy 24/7 in a conscious (controlled) manner, one integrates the two and can notice the "potential". The potential is the pristine clarity (or light) of the void. Or in more modern terms, it is the structure or raw building stuff of mind/universal mind. All that exists or potentially can exist is a transmission of this pristine clarity/light.

When one fully realizes these three components as integrated and inseparable, they have realized ultimate emptiness. One "sees behind" the curtain (of mind) and becomes stabilized in the primordial sea.


Ultimately, void is nothingness, energy is the motion of nothingness, clarity (or light) is the realization of the potential of it all that can be guided by intent

There is no debate about how I view Rigpa is different from someone else. That is impossible. Like I said if your view is different you need to keep going.

I find this post to be a keeper. Very eloquent and to the point as well as educational. Thank you for it.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by athribiristan

Both are true. From your perspective you were being kind, from her pespective you were being rude and sarcastic.

Yes, I went on to state that both are true.

We are creative beings. Our thoughts shape the very fabric of this universe, what we perceive to be true becomes true because we perceive it that way. Perception is everything. Its Einstein....everything is relative....everything.

I have already agreed that there is a level of truth to our perceptions in that it is true that we experience them. However, when a perception does not accurately represent the true nature of the experience, this can be considered a false or distorted perception. For example, the person believing I was being rude when I was actually being kind, or being visited by a friendly spirit but perceiving it as a demon due to false preconceived beliefs. The perceptions did occur, and to that extent they are true, as they actually happened, but they do not reflect the reality of the actual experience, but are a distortion, and in this sense they are not truth. It is not true that I was being rude. It is not true that the person was visited by a demon. This

Your perception is that reality is the cause and perception is the effect when in fact it is the opposite. Perception is the cause. Even science has finally figured this out. Physics tells us that the object being observed is affected by the observer. Now quantum physics is suggesting that an object doesn't exist until it is observed.

The fact that we experience a more-or-less objective/consensus physical reality suggests that there is an underlying energetic substance or core level of reality which, when we observe it and it becomes a tangible experience in our perception, becomes the same experience for everyone with properly functioning mental faculties. Our brains and minds are essentially interpreting nonphysical energy and vibrations into a tangible experience. It seems more likely that a person with a very different interpretation than the rest of the consensus is not magically changing the underlying energetic structure that it is perceiving, but rather is mistranslating that energy. There are mental processes involved which distort the incoming signals that would otherwise be perceived accurately.

Which truth trumps what? What are these different definitions? It is all the same truth: the sum total of all awareness. There are those things on which we all generally agree, such as gravity, the speed of light, the laws of physics etc. This would be the concept of objective truth. Then you have the things that we don't agree on, our subjective truths. They shape our experience as surely as any objective truth possibly could. They are absolutely real and true from our own perspective. This is why I say what is true is what is true for you.

The main problem I see with your idea of truth is that it does little good in the way of aiding in the purification of the mind and spiritual growth. Encouraging others to hold every perception in their mind, whether distorted or accurate, as "truth" can be very misleading and could result in delusion and attachment issues. The truth that triumphs is the truth that best serves the individual.

When is it ever not best to have a clear perception of reality? It is of upmost importance that we understand that not ever perception in our mind is an accurate reflection of reality, as there are aspects in the mind which influence and distort our perceptions in unskillful ways. This is verified by the fact that we live in a consensus reality in which things and events can be confirmed or invalidated by others.

Is it best or most skillful for the person to continue to erroneously believe that I was being rude, or is it best for the person to gain a clear perspective on the situation and realize that I was actually being kind? Is it best for the person to allow their fearful belief system to shape and contort their spiritual experiences into perceptions of demons and other horrors, or is it best for them to understand the nature of their mind to distort reality based on their unwholesome mental tendencies, and learn to purify these unskillful mind states so that clear perception is attained? These are, of course, rhetorical questions, as the answers are obvious.

The fact of harmful activity 'working' for an individual is not the issue that needs to be examined. Their antisocial behavior will likely be based on a belief that this is the only way they can get ahead, they don't have opportunities like other people. The sum total of their life experience has led them to this truth. The action is a symptom. Again you transpose cause and effect.

I didn't bring up the idea of truth "working" for the individual. I simply addressed it when it was raised. The fact that you consider murder as a "truth" is evidence enough that the "truth" you are propagating does not have other's best interests in mind. What you call "truth" in this case, most would call "false belief." It is not true that the person has to steal or murder. It is a false belief in their mind. You seem to be taking a far too liberal approach to your definitions here.

And yet the sense of strength and power that it gives you is very real. How is it not true? Your belief makes it true for you. Other people may not believe that you were Stalin and that can be true for them. Failure to understand multiple dimensions of spiritual existence results in the idea that we all share the same reality. My truth in no way precludes your truth, even if they are completely opposite each other. To the extent that they disagree our existences simply don't overlap. There are undoubtedly beings whose truths would be so foreign to us, their realities are of necessity so far removed from our own, that we cannot even become aware of them in a three dimensional sense.

The feelings and attitudes that result from a particular way of thinking do not make the details of that belief true. Simply because I feel powerful believing that I used to be Stalin does not mean it is true that I actually was Stalin. The only thing this proves as true is that I feel powerful entertaining this belief. Suggesting anything more is nothing more than speculation.

So, what's the point? There are skillful ways of using and understanding "truth." To believe that any and all perceptions are truth may not be the most skillful approach, as it overlooks the fact that the mind creates distortions in our perceptions as a result of it's defilements and habitual unskillful tendencies, and that these distortions are not accurate reflections of reality and lead to our own suffering. I believe it is best to understand this and to seek to purify the mind so that Truth can be perceived, as opposed to our false and distorted ideas of what is true.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

All of the Buddha's teaching lead to Emptiness Vince. The Heart Sutra is a great example of that.

There is no debate about how I view Rigpa is different from someone else. That is impossible. Like I said if your view is different you need to keep going.

Thank you. I am familiar with these concepts, it just seems like you haven't quite tied them in with the discussion at hand.

Your statement about views is still a little confusing and you haven't clarified what you meant by "there is no my view is different from your view." Sure, rigpa is a defined term that cannot be debated. It is a word that has a definite meaning. Your view is that these concepts are true. Someone else's view is that something else is true.

So, can you make your post relevant to this discussion?

[jonesboy]

Ahh being the thread police. You tried this on me before and I let it slide.

This thread is about God and finding the Truth.

I just explained your Promordial State. The universally accepted Primordial State.

Only those who have not experienced it debate the truth of it Vince. You are teaching people about the power of choosing which thought to believe in. Right View, Wrong View. I am talking beyond that.

Don't take my word for it. Read this.

The Meditations of Longchen Rabjam A Guide to the Four Chog Zhag and Three Samadhis

Longchen Rabjam:
Longchen Rabjampa, Drimé Özer (Wylie: klong chen rab 'byams pa dri med 'od zer), commonly abbreviated to Longchenpa (1308–1364), was a major teacher in the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism. Along with Sakya Pandita and Je Tsongkhapa, he is commonly recognized as one of the three main manifestations of Mañjuśrī to have taught in Central Tibet. His major work is the Seven Treasures,[1] which encapsulates the previous six hundred years of Buddhist thought in Tibet. Longchenpa was a critical link in the exoteric and esoteric transmission of the Dzogchen teachings. He was abbot of Samye, one of Tibet's most important monasteries and the first Buddhist monastery established in the Himalaya, but spent most of his life travelling or in retreat.

[Eskay]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

All of the Buddha's teaching lead to Emptiness Vince. The Heart Sutra is a great example of that.

So lets start with Emptiness.

I hear a lot about flows of energy, winds is another way of describing them. Once one opens there heart chakra and is able to feel the winds flow through body they can start to experience empitness. One resides as those flows and understands that they are empty. That those flows are you and the plants and everything a oneness. It is Emptiness of self.

Rigpa is a state in which one can reside. Rigpa is a state most often associated with Dzogchen a direct transmission guru based Buddhist practice.

There are kind of two "levels" of emptiness in Buddhism, emptiness of self and then beyond, the emptiness of ultimate reality. The realization of of emptiness of self is the stepping beyond the dualistic self at the local body mind level/layer. Rigpa is beyond that and is the residing in the base of ultimate reality (or the integration of all existence).

Rigpa is not "noticing" in an intellectual way, but is the "experience" of instantaneous pure presence. A realization of primordial bodhicitta where one "knows" that it is the source of all manifestations of energy/form. Where one is not a wave in the ocean, but the "transmission" of the ocean itself.

Primordial emptiness is like a bubbling sea of nothingness, brimming with potential. It can be most easily described in the realization of three components, but each of the component is inseparable. These components are Void, motion (or energy) and potential.

The void is empty with no activity at all. Nothing to perceive and nothing to sense. Like a totally dead sea with no motion. The nature of void can be found going deeper and deeper into meditation. The is a common goal in many traditions. But, it is beyond senses, lights or astral visions. All activity in mind (or universal mind) is dropped such that nothing is left. All perception is gone, such that the mind is still and for all practical purposes, one and everything "ceases".

When the nothingness of void "moves" or changes state, one has "energy". Energy has no true substance as it is only the motion of void, but it gives rise to something to be "perceived". In it's emergence, energy can be guided by "intent". First energy is noticed on a subconscious level, but with greater realization, it can be guided and affected. First in one's body, and later as greater mental obstructions are cleared on a universal level.

When one has fully realized the void and one experiences energy 24/7 in a conscious (controlled) manner, one integrates the two and can notice the "potential". The potential is the pristine clarity (or light) of the void. Or in more modern terms, it is the structure or raw building stuff of mind/universal mind. All that exists or potentially can exist is a transmission of this pristine clarity/light.

When one fully realizes these three components as integrated and inseparable, they have realized ultimate emptiness. One "sees behind" the curtain (of mind) and becomes stabilized in the primordial sea.


Ultimately, void is nothingness, energy is the motion of nothingness, clarity (or light) is the realization of the potential of it all that can be guided by intent

There is no debate about how I view Rigpa is different from someone else. That is impossible. Like I said if your view is different you need to keep going.

Great knowledge and wisdom here...the reason one can not have a different view of this is because we are all the same. We are all one, individually we are on different levels of consciousness. So some are more aware of this view than others but one has to balance the human brain to feel the difference. When the cerebral mind is imbalanced, it loses consciousness of self. Which allows lower sections of the mind to control which can cause false perceptions of self!

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Ahh being the thread police.

Not quite. Just trying to understand your point in relation to the topic at hand.

This thread is about God and finding the Truth.

I just explained your Promordial State. The universally accepted Primordial State.

So you basically stated "your" truth. Universally accepted? Hmmm, perhaps not. Ultimately true? Maybe.

Only those who have not experienced it debate the truth of it Vince. You are teaching people about the power of choosing which thought to believe in. Right View, Wrong View. I am talking beyond that.

Have you experienced primordial consciousness? Have you experienced rigpa? Do you have first hand experience of Buddha nature? Have you experienced these concepts to an extent that leaves no doubt in your mind as to their absolute and universally valid truth? Or are you speaking in concepts and beliefs?

Understand that you are expressing a view, not going beyond it. Whether that view is "right" or "wrong" depends upon the nature of the results that the view bring in your mind.

Don't take my word for it. Read this.

"Don't take my word for it. Take someone else's word for it!" But in all seriousness, thanks for the link. I'll check out that book, although again, as a practicing Buddhist I am familiar with the material.

With Metta

[Miss Hepburn]

"Primordial emptiness"

"is like a bubbling sea of nothingness, brimming with potential. It can be most easily described in the realization of three components, but each of the component is inseparable.
These components are Void, motion (or energy) and potential."

Been there...no bubbling sea, haha...just black Void...nothing...
Except 'You" are there, of course...Pure Consciousness or
Awareness,
whatever the proper word is.
Point is ...no bubbling sea...if anyone saw a bubbling sea
there I would love to talk with them.
No sea....no bubbles...

[jonesboy]

So you basically stated "your" truth. Universally accepted? Hmmm, perhaps not. Ultimately true? Maybe

.

Accepted in Yoga and Buddhism yes.

Have you experienced primordial consciousness? Have you experienced rigpa? Do you have first hand experience of Buddha nature? Have you experienced these concepts to an extent that leaves no doubt in your mind as to their absolute and universally valid truth? Or are you speaking in concepts and beliefs?

Yes I have.

Understand that you are expressing a view, not going beyond it. Whether that view is "right" or "wrong" depends upon the nature of the results that the view bring in your mind.

No that is not true. You are still dealing with thoughts. This is beyond that.

"Don't take my word for it. Take someone else's word for it!" But in all seriousness, thanks for the link. I'll check out that book, although again, as a practicing Buddhist I am familiar with the material.

I have offered many times to help others Vince. I offered to share presense with you if you remember. Within the last month I have helped two people from here achieve Light. To feel the flows of energy and start to work with the Male and Female aspects of Light. To feel ecstasy and and they are on there way to emptiness :) I can accept that only a few will listen here and there. Sometimes they need to hear it from someone else first. That is why I posted the link so that you/others could listen to someone else besides me say it.