Muscle Tension During Meditation

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

I had experimented with the few mental fabrications which I heard of and found that are not conducive. The basic problem is that if one employs a volitional act, the 'as it is' is obscured by it. I would suggest that this is why the fabrications are not included in the suttas.

The entire path laid out by the Buddha in fact consists entirely of fabrications, as the Buddha taught that every conditioned phenomenon that arises and passes away, which is everything except for the experience of Nibbana, is a fabrication.

The volitional mental fabrications you speak of are the means the Buddha taught by which the practitioner moves from a state of ignorance into a state of wisdom and purity. As I said, there are volitional fabrications in all of the Buddha's instructions, including Vipassana methods, although Vipassana or insight meditation was not taught by the Buddha as a method in and of itself, but rather was taught in conjunction with Shamatha or concentration and tranquility meditation, so the Vipassana method you used probably won't be found in the suttas either.

But as I said, even the Vipassana methods taught today use volitional fabrications. Just the intention to watch the arising and passing of momentary experience is a volitional fabrication. Each time you recognize and categorize an arising and passing phenomenon or experience during the meditation, that is a volitional fabrication. The focusing your awareness on the present moment experience is a volitional fabrication, an action of the mind directed by intention.

The point of the Budda's methods is to experiment with one's volitional fabrications to discern which ones lead to more wholesome states of being and which ones don't. Not every type of fabrication will work for everyone, as our minds have their own unique inclinations.


Edit: I forgot to mention this but I believe it is important. The mental fabrications used during meditation have different purposes. To cultivate Shamatha (concentration and tranquility), fabrications directed at stilling the mind are used, such as the counting method you mentioned. To cultivate Vipassana, fabrications directed at giving rise to insight into the impermanence, unsatisfactory, and not-self nature of phenomenon are used, such as scanning the entire body or contemplation. So if you were imploring a method used to cultivate calm and concentration with the goal of cultivating insight, you were using the wrong means of achieving that goal and it would thus seem unproductive to your particular practice. An important part of the teachings is determining what fabrications bring about the best results.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

The entire path laid out by the Buddha in fact consists entirely of fabrications, as the Buddha taught that every conditioned phenomenon that arises and passes away, which is everything except for the experience of Nibbana, is a fabrication.

The volitional mental fabrications you speak of are the means the Buddha taught by which the practitioner moves from a state of ignorance into a state of wisdom and purity. As I said, there are volitional fabrications in all of the Buddha's instructions, including Vipassana methods, although Vipassana or insight meditation was not taught by the Buddha as a method in and of itself, but rather was taught in conjunction with Shamatha or concentration and tranquility meditation, so the Vipassana method you used probably won't be found in the suttas either.

I would think the anapanasati and the satipatthana suttas are the basis of Anapanna and Vipassana meditation techniques...

But as I said, even the Vipassana methods taught today use volitional fabrications. Just the intention to watch the arising and passing of momentary experience is a volitional fabrication.

I was using the word 'volition' to mean 'intentionally affecting change'.

Each time you recognize and categorize an arising and passing phenomenon or experience during the meditation, that is a volitional fabrication. The focusing your awareness on the present moment experience is a volitional fabrication, an action of the mind directed by intention.

One can observe phenomena that occur spontaneously which are not volitionally invoked, which is the difference between observing breath and controlling the breath, for example.

The point of the Budda's methods is to experiment with one's volitional fabrications to discern which ones lead to more wholesome states of being and which ones don't. Not every type of fabrication will work for everyone, as our minds have their own unique inclinations.

I think observing what is spontaneously occurring is an essential key, but it seems to more common to try to conjure what is wanted than to see what is.

Edit

: I forgot to mention this but I believe it is important. The mental fabrications used during meditation have different purposes. To cultivate Shamatha (concentration and tranquility), fabrications directed at stilling the mind are used, such as the counting method you mentioned. To cultivate Vipassana, fabrications directed at giving rise to insight into the impermanence, unsatisfactory, and not-self nature of phenomenon are used, such as scanning the entire body or contemplation. So if you were imploring a method used to cultivate calm and concentration with the goal of cultivating insight, you were using the wrong means of achieving that goal and it would thus seem unproductive to your particular practice. An important part of the teachings is determining what fabrications bring about the best results.

I mentioned counting in response, but consider it to be ill advised, and have already explained why. 'Volition' is attempting to affect change, and although the observation requires focus, such as body scanning, there is no attempt to make it different to 'as it is'. I would consider additions that aim at that attempt to be ill advised as it misses the deeper implications of the practice.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

I would think the anapanasati and the satipatthana suttas are the basis of Anapanna and Vipassana meditation techniques...

You are absolutely correct. But like I stated earlier, the particular Vipassana methods taught today are not contained in these suttas, but are a result of interpretations of the suttas.

I was using the word 'volition' to mean 'intentionally affecting change'.

Volition is will, the psychological function of deciding on and carrying out a particular course of action. The "affecting change" part is an addition you have made which is not inherent in the meaning of the word. One can have the volition of not affecting change, and this fact renders your idiosyncratic definition as false.

One can observe phenomena that occur spontaneously which are not volitionally invoked, which is the difference between observing breath and controlling the breath, for example.

True.

I think observing what is spontaneously occurring is an essential key, but it seems to more common to try to conjure what is wanted than to see what is.

As I said before, the entire path laid out by the Buddha is based on skillful "conjuring" or fabricating. Observing what is spontaneously occurring is certainly important for understanding the current state of the mind. At that point, however, one is to use that insight to decide a course of action to eliminate whatever particular defilements have the tendency of spontaneously arising and give rise to more wholesome states of mind.

I mentioned counting in response, but consider it to be ill advised, and have already explained why. 'Volition' is attempting to affect change, and although the observation requires focus, such as body scanning, there is no attempt to make it different to 'as it is'. I would consider additions that aim at that attempt to be ill advised as it misses the deeper implications of the practice.

So now we're clear that volition is not "attempting to affect change," but simply will and intention.

The term fabrication is likewise is not synonymous with "affecting change," but is rather a concept describing both the processes of the mind as it puts together its experiences and the volitional movements of the mind.

Of course, affecting change is a key aspect of the practice, otherwise there would be no point of the practice, we would all just remain ignorant.

I believe you are confused about the nature and purpose of insight in Buddhist practices, as you seem to believe that it is not possible or incorrect if one is volitionally affecting change. Actually, they key of insight is developing it as one is affecting change, for one then gains the wisdom that comes from understanding the effects of their actions, and it is through one's actions that the practitioner makes progress along the path.

In fact, the very act of practicing Vipassana is aimed at affecting change, a change in the mind's ability to see clearly, a change from ignorance to wisdom, a change in one's understanding and insight.

I would recommend further study of Buddhist teachings if you desire a better understanding.

Take care

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

You are absolutely correct. But like I stated earlier, the particular Vipassana methods taught today are not contained in these suttas, but are a result of interpretations of the suttas.



Volition is will, the psychological function of deciding on and carrying out a particular course of action. The "affecting change" part is an addition you have made which is not inherent in the meaning of the word. One can have the volition of not affecting change, and this fact renders your idiosyncratic definition as false.

It's meaning I intended, I'll desist in using that word.



True.

As I said before, the entire path laid out by the Buddha is based on skillful "conjuring" or fabricating. Observing what is spontaneously occurring is certainly important for understanding the current state of the mind. At that point, however, one is to use that insight to decide a course of action to eliminate whatever particular defilements have the tendency of spontaneously arising and give rise to more wholesome states of mind.

So now we're clear that volition is not "attempting to affect change," but simply will and intention.

The term fabrication is likewise is not synonymous with "affecting change," but is rather a concept describing both the processes of the mind as it puts together its experiences and the volitional movements of the mind.

Of course, affecting change is a key aspect of the practice, otherwise there would be no point of the practice, we would all just remain ignorant.

I believe you are confused about the nature and purpose of insight in Buddhist practices, as you seem to believe that it is not possible or incorrect if one is volitionally affecting change. Actually, they key of insight is developing it as one is affecting change, for one then gains the wisdom that comes from understanding the effects of their actions, and it is through one's actions that the practitioner makes progress along the path.

In fact, the very act of practicing Vipassana is aimed at affecting change, a change in the mind's ability to see clearly, a change from ignorance to wisdom, a change in one's understanding and insight.

I would recommend further study of Buddhist teachings if you desire a better understanding.

Take care

Change is occurring spontaneously, and there's a difference between invoking a change by will and observing what happens to occur. If one does employ an willful activity, they won't be able to observe the finer nuances of what arises spontaneously within them. If one's practice entails willfully invoking activities, there's no way they could understand the significance of this.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

Change is occurring spontaneously, and there's a difference between invoking a change by will and observing what happens to occur. If one does employ an willful activity, they won't be able to observe the finer nuances of what arises spontaneously within them. If one's practice entails willfully invoking activities, there's no way they could understand the significance of this.

I understand the point you are making, although I don't believe it is in line with the Buddha's teachings, nor the teachings of the Theravada Bhikkhus that I follow. In fact, it contradicts the teachings, not to mention my own experience as well as the experiences of many other practitioners who I have conversed with in various online communities.

It seems you are assuming that one's observational faculties must be suspended while volitional activities are taking place, or must be dulled in the very least. This is false. Again, knowledge of the teachings would help clear up your misconceptions, but I'll try to be of service.

I'll provide an example from the practice of Anapanasati. It is not just a practice of passively observing the breath. It is a practice of manipulating the body and mind to gain insight into the ways in which one can cultivate tranquility and wisdom. If you read the 16 steps of the Anapanasati instructions, you will see that each step involves both volitional activities AND careful observation of the effects of each volition.

The first two steps involve fabricating long and short breaths for the purpose of gaining insight into how the nature of the breath, namely its length, affects the body and mind. So you volitionally breath long breaths and observe the effects, thus gaining insight. Then you do the same with short breaths.

The next step is to become sensitive to the entire body while breathing, to become aware of the breath energy throughout the whole body. This is also a volitional activity. You willfully expand your range of awareness to fill the entire body and observe the effects of the breath energy while having a whole-body awareness, thus gaining insight.

The fourth step is to calm the body with the breath. This is a volitional activity involving breathing in a way which induces tranquility. It requires careful observation of the manner in which one is volitionally breathing and its effects on the level of calm in the body. Again, volition and insight are paired, two crucial aspects of the instructions.

If it was not possible to observe internal phenomenon and gain insight while engaging in volitional activity, it would not be included in every step of the Buddha's teachings. Of course, to you these are just concepts, as I assume you have not experienced their validity, otherwise you would not hold your current view. If you truly want insight into this matter I would recommend practicing in line with the suttas. Of course, becoming familiar with the teachings would be helpful as well.

Take care

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

I understand the point you are making, although I don't believe it is in line with the Buddha's teachings, nor the teachings of the Theravada Bhikkhus that I follow. In fact, it contradicts the teachings, not to mention my own experience as well as the experiences of many other practitioners who I have conversed with in various online communities.

It does seem to contradict with most people's view on the practice.

It seems you are assuming that one's observational faculties must be suspended while volitional activities are taking place, or must be dulled in the very least. This is false. Again, knowledge of the teachings would help clear up your misconceptions, but I'll try to be of service.

I'll provide an example from the practice of Anapanasati. It is not just a practice of passively observing the breath. It is a practice of manipulating the body and mind to gain insight into the ways in which one can cultivate tranquility and wisdom. If you read the 16 steps of the Anapanasati instructions, you will see that each step involves both volitional activities AND careful observation of the effects of each volition.

The first two steps involve fabricating long and short breaths for the purpose of gaining insight into how the nature of the breath, namely its length, affects the body and mind. So you volitionally breath long breaths and observe the effects, thus gaining insight. Then you do the same with short breaths.

The next step is to become sensitive to the entire body while breathing, to become aware of the breath energy throughout the whole body. This is also a volitional activity. You willfully expand your range of awareness to fill the entire body and observe the effects of the breath energy while having a whole-body awareness, thus gaining insight.

The fourth step is to calm the body with the breath. This is a volitional activity involving breathing in a way which induces tranquility. It requires careful observation of the manner in which one is volitionally breathing and its effects on the level of calm in the body. Again, volition and insight are paired, two crucial aspects of the instructions.

If it was not possible to observe internal phenomenon and gain insight while engaging in volitional activity, it would not be included in every step of the Buddha's teachings. Of course, to you these are just concepts, as I assume you have not experienced their validity, otherwise you would not hold your current view. If you truly want insight into this matter I would recommend practicing in line with the suttas. Of course, becoming familiar with the teachings would be helpful as well.

Take care

I think my current practice is more suitable and more refined than the above recommendations. I will read these suttas, so thank you for inspiring me to do so.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think my current practice is more suitable and more refined than the above recommendations. I will read these suttas, so thank you for inspiring me to do so.

It's great that you are open to other possibilities. I have come across some who refuse to challenge their own views, regardless of what logic or evidence is presented.

Our of curiosity, and now that this thread is so derailed at this point that it is basically our own to discuss what we please, what is your current method of practice?


As for reading the suttas, I would actually recommend first coming familiar with the teachings of an ordained teacher. They essentially present the teachings in the suttas in a way that is very easy to understand and apply to one's own life, and from a vantage point of wisdom, having put into practice these teachings for their entire lives. Our own interpretations of the suttas may not always come from a place of true understanding or wisdom, especially if we are new on the path.

What is great about the teachings is that they provide a tangible path of practice, not just during meditation, but during every moment of life, regardless of the particular situation, in which we may put the principles and instructions into action and witness the fruits, witness our defilements, our attachments and aversions becoming weaker and weaker, witness our views become more conductive to clarity in thought and perception, and witness more refined, unconditioned states of peace and happiness cultivate within us. This has been my experience anyway.

I especially recommend the teachings of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. His teachings are concise and potent. Dhamma talks are an especially efficient way to become familiar with the teachings. I usually listen to them during my drive to work, while working out or doing work on my property, or any other time that I would otherwise be alone with my thoughts but too active to actually pick up a book or meditate. Here's a link for anyone interested:
http://www.dhammatalks.org/mp3_collections_index.html#

[sunsoul]

The part about intentionally shortening or lengthening the breath I have never seen or had any Buddhist teacher teach. That is in Hindu yoga practice as part of pranayama (pre-meditative exercises).

If you have actual references for that I would be interested in seeing them.

[sunsoul]

Okay, I see there are some different suttas and explanations. I am used to the Mahasatipatthana sutta. There is a point described here of note when describing mindful breathing:

"The practitioner of meditation who consciously watches the breath in this manner should never try to control his breathing or hold back his breath with effort."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...mma/bl115.html

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

It's great that you are open to other possibilities. I have come across some who refuse to challenge their own views, regardless of what logic or evidence is presented.

Our of curiosity, and now that this thread is so derailed at this point that it is basically our own to discuss what we please, what is your current method of practice?

In the breath meditation, it's the same as the sutta. Feel air at the nostrils, (but I since refined that, took a bit of practice, and now feel on the tip of the upper lip). That's it. There are various intricacies to that kind of practice which I can state and give reason for... but your convictions will be contradicted.

The extension of that is body sensation, which I noticed was in the sutta as well, but that practice has some underpinning fundamentals that need to be understood... which might contradict what the ordained might say as well.

The most fundamental part is to be observant of what happens to be, and do not regulate the breath or conjure anything. No will power should be used to affect any change. Only be aware of what occurs spontaneously. There are good reasons for that which I can explain, which will apparently contradict your convictions.

As for reading the suttas, I would actually recommend first coming familiar with the teachings of an ordained teacher. They essentially present the teachings in the suttas in a way that is very easy to understand and apply to one's own life, and from a vantage point of wisdom, having put into practice these teachings for their entire lives. Our own interpretations of the suttas may not always come from a place of true understanding or wisdom, especially if we are new on the path.

I learned the Buddhist meditations in the formal sense under monastic conditions, and stick to the fundamentals of that, but what I have to say about the practice comes directly from my experience in the meditation. My practice disregards anything that isn't conducive gaining insight into the nature of the mind, and because it comes from the insight I gleaned in practice, I can give reason to explain every aspect of that practice. I'm happy to talk about the practice with ordained monks and read suttas and anything that you suggest, but I'm not accepting authority and am not prepared to communicate on uneven grounds.

What is great about the teachings is that they provide a tangible path of practice, not just during meditation, but during every moment of life, regardless of the particular situation, in which we may put the principles and instructions into action and witness the fruits, witness our defilements, our attachments and aversions becoming weaker and weaker, witness our views become more conductive to clarity in thought and perception, and witness more refined, unconditioned states of peace and happiness cultivate within us. This has been my experience anyway.

This is true. The practice doesn't start when you sit on your cushion and does not end when meditation time is over. It's always there throughout life. Tru Dat, what you say!

I especially recommend the teachings of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. His teachings are concise and potent. Dhamma talks are an especially efficient way to become familiar with the teachings. I usually listen to them during my drive to work, while working out or doing work on my property, or any other time that I would otherwise be alone with my thoughts but too active to actually pick up a book or meditate. Here's a link for anyone interested:
http://www.dhammatalks.org/mp3_collections_index.html#

Ok, I'll have a look