what is bliss?

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yes my friends, I am pretty much over this whole thing now.

Other people say stuff to me like "according to a revered holy scripture, it says this and if you don't follow that revered holy scripture, then you cannot be a Hindu according to Dharma".

As soon as I say; "I'm sorry, but I cannot simply take your word over those of Valmiki or Tulsidas, could you please show me the exact scripture which states what you are implying?" and of course, they can't...and so all of the name-calling and ad hominem starts...they will say they dislike me...and I will be like "why? because I called you out on your attempts to delude people? then, hate me all you like, I don't care".

Then, there are those people who say that Jesus, Buddha, Ramana Maharishi etc did this or that...helped people...cured people....enlightened people...NO! when a being reaches that stage, they don't do anything anymore...everything is done through them and they just sit back and watch it all happen...Ramana would have meditated on the side of Arunachala irrespective of whether hundreds of devotees turned up or not!

Saints and sages are not there for other people. They exist to realise their own innate Divinity and if that 'rubs off' on others, well and good...but it's not something they consciously 'do' because by that stage, they are not doing anything anymore.

When your open to yourself and your own divinity (true self) your right, the only thing one is doing is being themselves, the doing is moving through life doing what you love and want to be doing. We all reflect what we are, what people notice is really what they are open to in themselves to notice in them...Most people will interpret the external as the doing "to them". When in fact your awakening to yourself as the awareness of yourself reflected..

[running]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yes my friends, I am pretty much over this whole thing now.

Other people say stuff to me like "according to a revered holy scripture, it says this and if you don't follow that revered holy scripture, then you cannot be a Hindu according to Dharma".

As soon as I say; "I'm sorry, but I cannot simply take your word over those of Valmiki or Tulsidas, could you please show me the exact scripture which states what you are implying?" and of course, they can't...and so all of the name-calling and ad hominem starts...they will say they dislike me...and I will be like "why? because I called you out on your attempts to delude people? then, hate me all you like, I don't care".

Then, there are those people who say that Jesus, Buddha, Ramana Maharishi etc did this or that...helped people...cured people....enlightened people...NO! when a being reaches that stage, they don't do anything anymore...everything is done through them and they just sit back and watch it all happen...Ramana would have meditated on the side of Arunachala irrespective of whether hundreds of devotees turned up or not!

Saints and sages are not there for other people. They exist to realise their own innate Divinity and if that 'rubs off' on others, well and good...but it's not something they consciously 'do' because by that stage, they are not doing anything anymore.

yep and yes.

[dryad]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Exactly where in the 'Vedic teachings' does it say that those in the 3rd or 4th Varnashrama of life need to avail themselves to/of others and share life's true richness with them?

It is called 'renunciation' for a reason and if this were not the case, there wouldn't be about 10 million Sadhus living in the jungles and caves of the Himalayas that only mix with their own kind once every 4 years during Kumbh Mela time...however, I would love to see exactly where in the 4 Vedas it says that you are not following them if you don't share your experiences with others - Sanskrit quote needed please!


So, the myopia isn't seeing things wrongly, it's seeing things they only want to see (selective perception) and basing their whole premise on a biased, skewed, warped view of life to the total and complete exclusion and detriment of everything else...because their ideas are the only 'true' ones and therefore everything else must be 'false'.

I've gone fully back into Advaita Vedanta as a result....because I was told that I was 'cold' and 'heartless' because I did not agree with somebody else involving their own 'Social Justice' ideations...sorry, but I am not the type who takes on all of the world's problems and karma onto my own shoulders, calling others 'miserable' when the mere act of them doing such, makes them unbearably so, to be able to exist in this world on any functional level.

So, I am basically over it. I'm over the Maya of this world, instigated by the 'myopic' views of other people, when it seems that only I have spectacles on and nobody else does. Thank you.

Sorry if it seemed directed at you Shivani. I was thinking in more general terms and not specifically about vedic traditions even but that it would apply to every tradition. I also dont think its necessarily in human social situations in which that experience has to be sought.... though some of it would there are also other avenues. But I also looked up these varnashrama you mentioned and it fits with the example perfectly anyway. The first two are the times in a persons life when they seek those kinds of experiences as a student and a householder. The third and fourth are when they withdraw from social life and pursue more solitary spiritual pursuits. That is the time when the "college aspiring youngster" needs to actually go to college having already gained the worldly experience to support such endeavour. It all depends on honouring the stage of life (and soul development) a person is at.

[davidsun]

I think Carlos Castenda's report of Don Juan's teachings on the 'enemies' one encounters on the path to becoming what he calls a Man (or Woman) of Knowledge speaks to the possibility of 'arrested development' (even over many lifetimes!) in relation to any psychospiritual goal or objective, 'bliss' included. Especially the second and third ones - 'clarity' and 'power'.

The following was copied from: http://www.tekgnostics.com/JUAN.HTM. There is a whole lot else there.

"When a man starts to learn, he is never clear about his objectives. His purpose is faulty; his intent is vague. He hopes for rewards that will never materialize, for he knows nothing of the hardships of learning. "He slowly begins to learn... bit by bit at first, then in big chunks. And his thoughts soon clash. What he learns is never what he pictured, or imagined, and so he begins to be afraid. Learning is never what one expects. Every step of learning is a new task, and the fear the man is experiencing begins to mount mercilessly, unyieldingly. His purpose becomes a battlefield.

"And thus he has tumbled upon the first of his natural enemies: Fear!

A terrible enemy... treacherous, and difficult to overcome. It remains concealed at every turn of the way, prowling... waiting. And if the man, terrified in its presence, runs away, his enemy will have put an end to his quest."
"What will happen to the man if he runs away in fear?"
"Nothing happens to him except that he will never learn. He will never become a man of knowledge. He will perhaps be a bully or a harmless, scared man; at any rate, he will be a defeated man. His first enemy will have put an end to his cravings."
"And what can he do to overcome fear?"
"The answer is very simple. He must not run away. He must defy his fear, and in spite of it he must take the next step in learning, and the next, and the next. He must be fully afraid, and yet he must not stop. That is the rule! And a moment will come when his first enemy retreats. The man begins to feel sure of himself. His intent becomes stronger. Learning is no longer a terrifying task. "When this joyful moment comes, the man can say without hesitation that he has defeated his first natural enemy."

"Does it happen at once, don Juan, or little by little?"
"It happens little by little, and yet the fear is vanquished suddenly and fast."
"But won’t the man be afraid again if something new happens to him?"
"No. Once a man has vanquished fear, he is free from it for the rest of his life because, instead of fear, he has acquired clarity... a clarity of mind which erases fear. By then a man knows his desires; he knows how to satisfy those desires. He can anticipate the new steps of learning, and a sharp clarity surrounds everything. The man feels that nothing is concealed.

"And thus he has encountered his second enemy: Clarity!

That clarity of mind, which is so hard to obtain, dispels fear, but also blinds. "It forces the man never to doubt himself. It gives him the assurance he can do anything he pleases, for he sees clearly into everything. And he is courageous because he is clear, and he stops at nothing because he is clear. But all that is a mistake; it is like something incomplete. If the man yields to this make-believe power, he has succumbed to his second enemy and will fumble with learning. He will rush when he should be patient, or he will be patient when he should rush. And he will fumble with learning until he winds up incapable of learning anything more."


"What becomes of a man who is defeated in that way, don Juan? Does he die as a result?"
"No, he doesn’t die. His second enemy has just stopped him cold from trying to become a man of knowledge; instead, the man may turn into a buoyant warrior, or a clown. Yet the clarity for which he has paid so dearly will never change to darkness and fear again. He will be clear as long as he lives, but he will no longer learn, or yearn for, anything."

"But what does he have to do to avoid being defeated?"
"He must do what he did with fear: he must defy his clarity and use it only to see, and wait patiently and measure carefully before taking new steps; he must think, above all, that his clarity is almost a mistake. And a moment will come when he will understand that his clarity was only a point before his eyes. And thus he will have overcome his second enemy, and will arrive at a position where nothing can harm him any more. This will not be a mistake. It will not be only a point before his eyes. It will be true power. "He will know at this point that the power he has been pursuing for so long is finally his. He can do with it whatever he pleases. His ally is at his command. His wish is the rule. He sees all that is around him.

But he has also come across his third enemy: Power!

"Power is the strongest of all enemies. And naturally the easiest thing to do is to give in; after all, the man is truly invincible. He commands; he begins by taking calculated risks, and ends in making rules, because he is a master. "A man at this stage hardly notices his third enemy closing in on him. And suddenly, without knowing, he will certainly have lost the battle. His enemy will have turned him into a cruel, capricious man."

"Will he lose his power?"
"No, he will never lose his clarity or his power."
"What then will distinguish him from a man of knowledge?"
"A man who is defeated by power dies without really knowing how to handle it. Power is only a burden upon his fate. Such a man has no command over himself, and cannot tell when or how to use his power."
"Is the defeat by any of these enemies a final defeat?"
"Of course it is final. Once one of these enemies overpowers a man there is nothing he can do."
"Is it possible, for instance, that the man who is defeated by power may see his error and mend his ways?"
"No. Once a man gives in he is through."

"But what if he is temporarily blinded by power, and then refuses it?"
"That means his battle is still on. That means he is still trying to become a man of knowledge. A man is defeated only when he no longer tries, and abandons himself."
"But then, don Juan, it is possible that a man may abandon himself to fear for years, but finally conquer it?"
"No, that is not true. If he gives in to fear he will never conquer it, because he will shy away from learning and never try again. But if he tries to learn for years in the midst of his fear, he will eventually conquer it because he will never have really abandoned himself to it."

"How can he defeat his third enemy, don Juan?"
"He has to defy it, deliberately. He has to come to realize the power he has seemingly conquered is in reality never his. He must keep himself in line at all times, handling carefully and faithfully all that he has learned. If he can see that clarity and power, without his control over himself, are worse than mistakes, he will reach a point where everything is held in check. He will know then when and how to use his power. And thus he will have defeated his third enemy.

"The man will be, by then, at the end of his journey of learning... and almost without warning he will come upon the last of his enemies: Old age!

This enemy is the cruelest of all, the one he won’t be able to defeat completely, but only fight away. "This is the time when a man has no more fears, no more impatient clarity of mind... a time when all his power is in check, but also the time when he has an unyielding desire to rest. If he gives in totally to his desire to lie down and forget, if he soothes himself in tiredness, he will have lost his last round, and his enemy will cut him down into a feeble old creature. His desire to retreat will overrule all his clarity, his power, and his knowledge.

"But if the man sloughs off his tiredness, and lives his fate through, he can then be called a man of knowledge, if only for the brief moment when he succeeds in fighting off his last, invincible enemy. That moment of clarity, power, and knowledge is enough."

[jonesboy]

Bliss is a result of clarity.

If in meditation you strive for bliss you will not find it.

If in life you strive for bliss you will not find it.

Just like in meditation, with true being.. bliss arises. The same with daily life. The more one is present, the more bliss one experiences.

Bliss and ones natural state are one and the same.

True's as bliss, i suppose. True's the generosity of, i suppose.

Stuff's a charm.

Maybe even light as cotton can.

[theempatheticadmirer]

bliss is essentially the power of one's self coming to a head. to live in complete bliss absent of circumstance is an internal decision. to live fully in the moment, not dependent on the reassurance of tomorrow or yesterday

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Bliss is a result of clarity.

If in meditation you strive for bliss you will not find it.

If in life you strive for bliss you will not find it.

Just like in meditation, with true being.. bliss arises. The same with daily life. The more one is present, the more bliss one experiences.

Bliss and ones natural state are one and the same.

If only Life was really that 'simple'! Of course, that 'approach' migh work for simpletons and/or others who are 'happy' not to engage with more complex considerations.

Don't take my word for it though. Try it, you might like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=d-diB65scQU

I prefer having a richer (IMO), more complex understanding of what 'truth' encompasses and so what 'true' being (used a 'catch' phrase' for anyone who wants to believe that Life is really that 'simple' and that 'bliss' is the be all and end all of one's (really!) 'natural' state).

Here's a video of what happens when someone is 'induced' to 'truly' ;) believe he really is (i.e. his 'natural' state is really 'a chicken': https://youtu.be/Ua-_wzfu-sc

Different strokes for different folks, however - it takes all kinds as the saying goes. But do, please, if you have a brain that's not totally susceptible to being governed by beliefs, think about the implications of what I have said, what's truly shown to be the case about how beliefs work in the latter video at least - what happens when one 'awakens' from such 'hypnosis', etc. :)

Bon voyage, whatever you choose, everyone!

P.S. Also re Jonesboy's opening line: "Bliss is a result of clarity.", do go back and reread and reconsider what I copy-posted earlier from Don Juan's talk about 'clairity' being the second 'enemy' capable of defeating peeps asipration to become men or women of knowledge.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by davidsun

If only Life was really that 'simple'! Of course, that 'approach' migh work for simpletons and/or others who are 'happy' not to engage with more complex considerations.

Don't take my word for it though. Try it, you might like it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=d-diB65scQU

I prefer have a richer (IMO) understanding of what 'truth' encompasses and so what 'true' being (used a 'catch' phrase' for anyone who wants to believe that Life is really that 'simple') actually involves. Different strokes for different folks, however - it takes all kinds as the saying goes.

Who said it is simple?

Being is what spiritual practices are really about. Realizing what you are, moving beyond the local mind stuff and the auto responses.

It can take a long time to experience this stuff in practice and even longer to experience it in daily life. Having a solid system of practices can speed that process along.

If you would like to discuss what being means I am more than happy to discuss it. Phases of being in daily life from the Witness to Rigpa etc.. How energy can be first experienced, moving towards ecstatic, full body to the realization that void=form.

Let me know,

Tom

If you are content with yourself, things proof.