Fundamentals of mindful practice

[Gem]

What we now call 'mindfulness' in modern meditation and psychotherapy are variations on the Buddhist meditation called 'insight' or 'vipassana'. The basic outline of this modality can be found in the satipatthana sutta.

However, one can't simply leap forth into the practice without establishing some foundations, so I want to talk about the foundations first, before discussing the underlying aspects of the meditation itself.

There is a primary fundamental and a secondary fundamental, and these are morality and organisation. Morality (sila) is crudely outlined in the 'precepts' which are simplistic rules concerning lying, stealing, killing and so forth, but of course, apart from simple abeyance, there are deeper aspects of nature from which these rules transpire. The second foundation, organisation, pertains to simple organisation of life, because if a person is scatty and erratic, living without any structure, so run off their feet they are beside themselves, or intoxicated/hungover, or otherwise disheveled, they are very likely to be highly distracted and won't be able to 'chillax'. One of the moral precepts actually regards intoxication directly, so in this we see an example of how morality interrelates with organisation.

In short, one needs to 'clean up their act' and 'get their house in order' to prepare the foundation of practice.

That will do for an OP, and perhaps we might talk about these points generally and lead into a more in depth discussion on mindfulness from there.

P.S. In view of frequent and recent moderator intervention in this forum section, I suggest that a disposition of kindness would best reflect discourses we regard as 'Buddhist'.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

What we now call 'mindfulness' in modern meditation and psychotherapy are variations on the Buddhist meditation called 'insight' or 'vipassana'. The basic outline of this modality can be found in the satipatthana sutta.

However, one can't simply leap forth into the practice without establishing some foundations, so I want to talk about the foundations first, before discussing the underlying aspects of the meditation itself.

There is a primary fundamental and a secondary fundamental, and these are morality and organisation. Morality (sila) is crudely outlined in the 'precepts' which are simplistic rules concerning lying, stealing, killing and so forth, but of course, apart from simple abeyance, there are deeper aspects of nature from which these rules transpire. The second foundation, organisation, pertains to simple organisation of life, because if a person is scatty and erratic, living without any structure, so run off their feet they are beside themselves, or intoxicated/hungover, or otherwise disheveled, they are very likely to be highly distracted and won't be able to 'chillax'. One of the moral precepts actually regards intoxication directly, so in this we see an example of how morality interrelates with organisation.

In short, one needs to 'clean up their act' and 'get their house in order' to prepare the foundation of practice.

That will do for an OP, and perhaps we might talk about these points generally and lead into a more in depth discussion on mindfulness from there.

P.S. In view of frequent and recent moderator intervention in this forum section, I suggest that a disposition of kindness would best reflect discourses we regard as 'Buddhist'.

Its good sound advice and starting points gem. I know early in my own early development times, when foundations were scattered and unfocused, I was being constantly reminded to bring that back into focus. I also see how fear through my conditioned religious upbringing played a role in keeping me from all those other things you mentioned, such as lying, stealing, killing etc. So even as I had friends growing up stealing and lying, some where within me fear always kept me from going off the rails in this way, which was a probably a good protective mechanism until I could delve into truth deeper myself and let fear go.

Focus was my biggest and most difficult foundation to build. I was all over the shop with skewed views and so many realities in me forming ten thousand strains and lines pulling me in all directions, crazy as it was, being so deeply entrenched, meant deeper weeding out and more solid foundation built. I guess that comes back to understanding all sides in self, to build that strong foundation of self, that then moves you more mindfully aware of yourself and all life.

I think back to how removed I am from my old foundations, that it is hard to even imagine how I was. But in hindsight, I see that for some reason, the deeper we are unstable in foundations, the more opportunity we have to go that deep to build them anew.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Its good sound advice and starting points gem. I know early in my own early development times, when foundations were scattered and unfocused, I was being constantly reminded to bring that back into focus. I also see how fear through my conditioned religious upbringing played a role in keeping me from all those other things you mentioned, such as lying, stealing, killing etc. So even as I had friends growing up stealing and lying, some where within me fear always kept me from going off the rails in this way, which was a probably a good protective mechanism until I could delve into truth deeper myself and let fear go.

I was raised Christian, too, which instilled basic moral behaviour, but under the fear of God's wrath as well, and my religious upbringing did more harm than good, wot with all the guilt trips etc, but all my beliefs collapsed very suddenly one night when I was 19 during a weird NDE spiced with a lot of alcohol and drugs, and from then on there's no way I can believe in religion at all. It doesn't matter much in terms of mindfulness, though, people can believe what they want, but we tend to find that our beliefs become exposed for the nonsense that they are once we become sincere about the truth - and in terms of morality, that means being so honest inside that our 'stories' tend to be a lot less convincing.

Focus was my biggest and most difficult foundation to build. I was all over the shop with skewed views and so many realities in me forming ten thousand strains and lines pulling me in all directions, crazy as it was, being so deeply entrenched, meant deeper weeding out and more solid foundation built. I guess that comes back to understanding all sides in self, to build that strong foundation of self, that then moves you more mindfully aware of yourself and all life.

Well, yes - what we call focus is actually already there - for example, if you are in a quite room and close your eyes and listen, any slight sound is immediately heard clear as a bell, so if we can take that same principle of noticing and apply it to whatever thoughts arise, then thoughts will arise in a clear space just like sounds do in a quiet room. The thing is, if you are in a quiet room like that, you don't try to make any sound because if you do you won't hear the sounds that arise, and it's quite easy to just quiet down and listen for whatever sound might happen in a quiet room.

It's a good metaphor for the practice because although many meditation techniques are trying to produce experiences, when we listen in a quiet room we simply become alert to the sounds that are there, and we automatically become quiet ourselves so that we can notice them. That is to say, if a person genuinely wants to know what is there, they will quiet down and 'listen' - and they won't try to quiet down - they only try to hear.

I think back to how removed I am from my old foundations, that it is hard to even imagine how I was. But in hindsight, I see that for some reason, the deeper we are unstable in foundations, the more opportunity we have to go that deep to build them anew.

In this sense, morality can already open up life issues, because you have to live in the truth, no matter how uncomfortable that might be, and the truth doesn't deal in what anyone wants. The truth is a word for 'as it is'; not a word for 'the way you want it to be'. If the foundations are not stable, then the truth will be obscured by justifications and stories of blame, but as I said, one has to quiet down to hear sounds in a quiet room, so it's ok for stories to come up, as one realises, 'oh, so this what I have been doing, justifying and blaming and making excuses,' and that means you don't care about those stories anymore, you recognise the fallacy and they become meaningless. You lose interest in them and stop making that sort of noise. If they pop up, you recognise them like, that's the stuff I used to think, knowing well you no longer believe it.

There we go, that's one problem solved, so one continues in a similar vein, being truthful, believing nothing the mind has to say, as thoughts are like sounds in a quiet room - they come into the mind and then they go away.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

I was raised Christian, too, which instilled basic moral behaviour, but under the fear of God's wrath as well, and my religious upbringing did more harm than good, wot with all the guilt trips etc, but all my beliefs collapsed very suddenly one night when I was 19 during a weird NDE spiced with a lot of alcohol and drugs, and from then on there's no way I can believe in religion at all. It doesn't matter much in terms of mindfulness, though, people can believe what they want, but we tend to find that our beliefs become exposed for the nonsense that they are once we become sincere about the truth - and in terms of morality, that means being so honest inside that our 'stories' tend to be a lot less convincing.

Yes I know the harm aspect can be confining to one's true self wanting to embrace life beyond that guilt trips etc. So that harm aspect I know all too well created a real disjointed connection to life in me and around me. Unlike yourself, my shift from conditioned religious core stuff didn't really kick in till much later when I hit the dark night of the soul time, where I had to go deep to pull out all those roots still lingering and affecting my openness and truth of the bigger picture and expand my reality as one monumental shift. Its like sometimes you need to see the whole bang lot together to kind of get it to hit home in everyway and see a way out. I guess your moment gave you what you needed back when you were "only nineteen" .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY

My dark night of the soul and expanded view of reality as one, was really where the deeper truth's were housed so once I landed in those roots, there was no where to go by that stage. Into the messy land and see the greater land awaiting, let go and found my way through the maze of craziness.

Well, yes - what we call focus is actually already there - for example, if you are in a quite room and close your eyes and listen, any slight sound is immediately heard clear as a bell, so if we can take that same principle of noticing and apply it to whatever thoughts arise, then thoughts will arise in a clear space just like sounds do in a quiet room. The thing is, if you are in a quiet room like that, you don't try to make any sound because if you do you won't hear the sounds that arise, and it's quite easy to just quiet down and listen for whatever sound might happen in a quiet room.

That makes sense. Listening is probably my strongest tool. Being hearing impaired has forced me in so many ways of its deterioration, to focus and listen deeper. So it comes more natural to me now to bring a deeper awareness beyond my 'normal ears' down into my 'being' and listen from there. So I suppose the loss was a gain in this way of viewing this issue I have.

It's a good metaphor for the practice because although many meditation techniques are trying to produce experiences, when we listen in a quiet room we simply become alert to the sounds that are there, and we automatically become quiet ourselves so that we can notice them. That is to say, if a person genuinely wants to know what is there, they will quiet down and 'listen' - and they won't try to quiet down - they only try to hear.

I did a workshop today about once again reminding me about dropping down into my being to move beyond the mind's eye and experiencing from that point alone (meaning not staying stuck in those views) shifting down into the belly to open up a deeper experience where all of me showed up, I entered the feeling, let go, opened the space of confinement, let go, climbed back up to my "birds eye view" where I saw the higher truth or wisdom of myself in all that. Where as the "minds eye" saw only myself as the vision alone, which was ok, because ultimately I was doing a test on myself as to why it is so easy to tell yourself the story of your visions rather than going down into your belly and allowing the whole self to show you more and gain more self awareness in that process.

In this sense, morality can already open up life issues, because you have to live in the truth, no matter how uncomfortable that might be, and the truth doesn't deal in what anyone wants. The truth is a word for 'as it is'; not a word for 'the way you want it to be'. If the foundations are not stable, then the truth will be obscured by justifications and stories of blame, but as I said, one has to quiet down to hear sounds in a quiet room, so it's ok for stories to come up, as one realises, 'oh, so this what I have been doing, justifying and blaming and making excuses,' and that means you don't care about those stories anymore, you recognise the fallacy and they become meaningless. You lose interest in them and stop making that sort of noise. If they pop up, you recognise them like, that's the stuff I used to think, knowing well you no longer believe it.

Makes much sense.

There we go, that's one problem solved, so one continues in a similar vein, being truthful, believing nothing the mind has to say, as thoughts are like sounds in a quiet room - they come into the mind and then they go away.

Yep.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Yes I know the harm aspect can be confining to one's true self wanting to embrace life beyond that guilt trips etc. So that harm aspect I know all too well created a real disjointed connection to life in me and around me. Unlike yourself, my shift from conditioned religious core stuff didn't really kick in till much later when I hit the dark night of the soul time, where I had to go deep to pull out all those roots still lingering and affecting my openness and truth of the bigger picture and expand my reality as one monumental shift. Its like sometimes you need to see the whole bang lot together to kind of get it to hit home in everyway and see a way out. I guess your moment gave you what you needed back when you were "only nineteen" .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY

Well, if you lose your religion suddenly like I did, it leaves a big hole and is very disorienting, so there is still a slow process of coming to terms with having nothing to 'turn to'.

My dark night of the soul and expanded view of reality as one, was really where the deeper truth's were housed so once I landed in those roots, there was no where to go by that stage. Into the messy land and see the greater land awaiting, let go and found my way through the maze of craziness.

Yes it's a dark night when you have to come to terms with all your own delusions, and that's likely to go on for a good while, but the meditation can give us some skills of keeping an even keel as we go through it. Almost everyone I've meditated with has a pretty rough trot, so I'm not one to sell spiritual hope. I just advocate facing the truth of oneself, and where people have answers for others, I don't.

That makes sense. Listening is probably my strongest tool. Being hearing impaired has forced me in so many ways of its deterioration, to focus and listen deeper. So it comes more natural to me now to bring a deeper awareness beyond my 'normal ears' down into my 'being' and listen from there. So I suppose the loss was a gain in this way of viewing this issue I have.

I learned listening skills from being a musician, same deal, have to listen harder to learn all the notes of a song, and then play them so they sound just right - and we know music has a feel below the sound itself...

I did a workshop today about once again reminding me about dropping down into my being to move beyond the mind's eye and experiencing from that point alone (meaning not staying stuck in those views) shifting down into the belly to open up a deeper experience where all of me showed up, I entered the feeling, let go, opened the space of confinement, let go, climbed back up to my "birds eye view" where I saw the higher truth or wisdom of myself in all that. Where as the "minds eye" saw only myself as the vision alone, which was ok, because ultimately I was doing a test on myself as to why it is so easy to tell yourself the story of your visions rather than going down into your belly and allowing the whole self to show you more and gain more self awareness in that process.

Sounds good. I don;t have anything like that. At the mo I'm training to be a personal trainer, and I have discovered that the industry is generally a big distraction from that mind/body connection, and based on people who are 'busy' having a short time to get their exercise done - and it all become quite noisy and rushed with a lot of sales and marketing pushing it all along... my own training is hard, but it is also serene and based on the practice of mind body connection and perfection of ranges of motion.



Makes much sense.




Yep.[/quote]

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, if you lose your religion suddenly like I did, it leaves a big hole and is very disorienting, so there is still a slow process of coming to terms with having nothing to 'turn to'.

Yes I get it, I guess my own crisis of faith when everything turned upside down and didn't fit anymore, left me sitting in an empty hole, so even as religion fuelled many of my core fears, there is comfort in holding both fears and god in your core even if held in fear. Letting them all go with nothing to hold onto anymore, if I recall was quite a desperate, out of control place I had to visit.

Yes it's a dark night when you have to come to terms with all your own delusions, and that's likely to go on for a good while, but the meditation can give us some skills of keeping an even keel as we go through it. Almost everyone I've meditated with has a pretty rough trot, so I'm not one to sell spiritual hope. I just advocate facing the truth of oneself, and where people have answers for others, I don't.

Yes I know that now, but going through it, it wasn't something I had as a tool to manage things in the way your aware of. Its all about truth of self. But the answers others gave me going through it, was often just enough to manage that void slowly and with less intensity alone. And of course those answers or coping tools from others, show me now, that was all a temporary transition of unveiling my truth and opening to change, so even answers and others that you may dismiss as not something you advocate, can be part of that love and support without any intent to make things right. If I recall back to that time, most of the support I needed were with others intuitively in synch with my needs so it was a godsend really. People were actually listening deeper in themselves as one with my point of being in the deep end. Seems to me how it works quite naturally..

I learned listening skills from being a musician, same deal, have to listen harder to learn all the notes of a song, and then play them so they sound just right - and we know music has a feel below the sound itself...

Yes, I observe my nephew learning guitar and the focus and listening is something you do notice, opens up a great deal of concentration.

Sounds good. I don;t have anything like that. At the mo I'm training to be a personal trainer, and I have discovered that the industry is generally a big distraction from that mind/body connection, and based on people who are 'busy' having a short time to get their exercise done - and it all become quite noisy and rushed with a lot of sales and marketing pushing it all along... my own training is hard, but it is also serene and based on the practice of mind body connection and perfection of ranges of motion.

Sounds exciting. You may well be a great mentor of others, connecting mind/body awareness, this plus all your skills, is a great package.

[Ground]

[jonesboy]

Some good honest conversation going on in this thread.

I see nothing that is funny.

Thank you both.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Some good honest conversation going on in this thread.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I see nothing that is funny.

you're funny

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Some good honest conversation going on in this thread.

I see nothing that is funny.

Thank you both.

Thanks for sharing your own thoughts jonesboy.
Don't let the chuckle face emot get in the way of your listening. Its just a chuckle face.