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24-03-2019, 07:40 AM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
It’s non dual.
People would ask Jesus about the Father and he would tell them he is standing before you. He and the Father are one.
All things are the Father, the realization of that is Heaven.
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Exactly....
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24-03-2019, 09:44 AM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
The idea of a Trinity was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of Jesus and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.
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If you like conspiracies and secret knowledge that only a clever few are aware of you could argue this, but the truth is rather simpler, the early Christians were faced with a similar dilemma as the one I came across - my trying to understand my position in relation to the Father and Jesus - they were trying to understand 'Abba' and Jesus as separate yet fully associated.
I was more looking at how the Father and Jesus are separate from me yet intimately part of the system of command of myself. Just real, simple questions, with answers that satisfy as well as they can when things are hard to understand. They could have referred to it as a duality mystery, but they wanted to include the hugeness of the Holy Spirit concept, so it became triune.
Anyway the pagan one requires mother father son doesn't it? Mary isn't part of the trinity. Nor is the Christian trinity associated with the sun or the moon or the planets. But conspiracy theorists tend to overlook inconvenient details.
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24-03-2019, 10:09 AM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
If you like conspiracies and secret knowledge that only a clever few are aware of you could argue this, but the truth is rather simpler, the early Christians were faced with a similar dilemma as the one I came across - my trying to understand my position in relation to the Father and Jesus - they were trying to understand 'Abba' and Jesus as separate yet fully associated.
I was more looking at how the Father and Jesus are separate from me yet intimately part of the system of command of myself. Just real, simple questions, with answers that satisfy as well as they can when things are hard to understand. They could have referred to it as a duality mystery, but they wanted to include the hugeness of the Holy Spirit concept, so it became triune.
Anyway the pagan one requires mother father son doesn't it? Mary isn't part of the trinity. Nor is the Christian trinity associated with the sun or the moon or the planets. But conspiracy theorists tend to overlook inconvenient details.
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It's not secret knowledge if it's known
The early Catholic Theologian St. Jerome testifies unequivocally, ‘All the ancient nations believed in the Trinity.
If you research Ancient Documents/Archaeology etc: you will find that most biblical stories/myths are just adapted to fit.
No not all Pagan Trinity's have a Female... Neither sun/moon/planets, do some research outside of the box, it's interesting...
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24-03-2019, 11:36 AM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
It's not secret knowledge if it's known
The early Catholic Theologian St. Jerome testifies unequivocally, ‘All the ancient nations believed in the Trinity.
If you research Ancient Documents/Archaeology etc: you will find that most biblical stories/myths are just adapted to fit.
No not all Pagan Trinity's have a Female... Neither sun/moon/planets, do some research outside of the box, it's interesting...
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The fact that there were pagan trinity's before the Christian trinity doesn't ipso facto mean that the Christian trinity took its lead from them. You might care to examine in what ways the Christian Trinity doctrine is dissimilar to previous Triads of Gods, which might broaden your own certain conclusions.
Just because someone has come up with a theory somewhere doesn't make it true. And just because they have found a quote from St Jerome which can seem to agree with them doesn't mean that's what St Jerome meant. Can you supply a fuller quote of St Jerome's line to give context to his quote?
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24-03-2019, 12:40 PM
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KJV Mathew 13
Quote:
(44)Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
(45)Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: (46)Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
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So if I understand you django you are saying we are in duality
until we can deny ourselves(sell our possessions) and possess the treasure/kingdom.
Or transform our will into the Fathers completely.
For example Romans chapter 7.
Here is verse 15 of Romans CH7 KJV
Quote:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
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But the whole chapter talks of Paul's battle.
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24-03-2019, 02:51 PM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
The fact that there were pagan trinity's before the Christian trinity doesn't ipso facto mean that the Christian trinity took its lead from them. You might care to examine in what ways the Christian Trinity doctrine is dissimilar to previous Triads of Gods, which might broaden your own certain conclusions.
Just because someone has come up with a theory somewhere doesn't make it true. And just because they have found a quote from St Jerome which can seem to agree with them doesn't mean that's what St Jerome meant. Can you supply a fuller quote of St Jerome's line to give context to his quote?
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You can research St Jerome yourself, he wrote a lot of books. He was a very educated Historian who studied Ancient Manuscripts / Beliefs. Obviously he would have read about other Trinitarian Cultures/Religions.
As you know not all Christians believe in a Trinity, there are many denominations who reject it as it was not part of the Bible or taught/mentioned by Jesus. The Christian Trinity and Pagan Trinity's are the same only they use different names for their God's.
I personally like this Hindu teaching taken from the Puranas, its not Pagan but it comes way before the Christian Trinity idea.
‘O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.’ The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva [or Shiva], becoming manifest to him, replied, ‘Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one.’
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24-03-2019, 09:59 PM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
You can research St Jerome yourself, he wrote a lot of books. He was a very educated Historian who studied Ancient Manuscripts / Beliefs. Obviously he would have read about other Trinitarian Cultures/Religions.
As you know not all Christians believe in a Trinity, there are many denominations who reject it as it was not part of the Bible or taught/mentioned by Jesus. The Christian Trinity and Pagan Trinity's are the same only they use different names for their God's.
I personally like this Hindu teaching taken from the Puranas, its not Pagan but it comes way before the Christian Trinity idea.
‘O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.’ The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva [or Shiva], becoming manifest to him, replied, ‘Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one.’
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It's interesting with quotes, they really need to be authenticated and read in context before asserting them. If you are going to use a quote, you really need to be able to back it up, not just throw the onus of research back in someone's face.
I was taught to find and name a quote from its original source, never a secondary source because you simply have no idea of the truth or otherwise of what you're asserting or its context if you haven't read the original. Can you prove your secondary source used the quote correctly and in context? You are aware of all the fake Buddha quotes yes? Do you think fake quotes are restricted to Buddhism?
Why Hindu's choose to see their 3 gods as a trinity is a specific topic, and likely has very different reasons to why Christians choose to see the Father Son and Holy Spirit as a trinity. Surface similarities are not a good indicator of underlying reasons.
Maybe you could try to examine Hindu versus Christian trinities personally, instead of just leaving it at a surface level and quoting internet fodder.
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24-03-2019, 10:25 PM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImthatIm
KJV Mathew 13
So if I understand you django you are saying we are in duality
until we can deny ourselves(sell our possessions) and possess the treasure/kingdom.
Or transform our will into the Fathers completely.
For example Romans chapter 7.
Here is verse 15 of Romans CH7 KJV
But the whole chapter talks of Paul's battle.
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Maybe I identify myself as my mind, and it is 'the Father' beyond my own mind that is in charge. So my perceived duality is between myself as my mind and the will of the Father which is beyond my mind.
But I don't have to destroy my mind, it continues to exist, just more as a witness to what the Father wills. The Father becomes the director, but I don't identify as the Father. Maybe one day, maybe not, time will tell.
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25-03-2019, 04:44 AM
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Deactivated Account
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
Maybe I identify myself as my mind, and it is 'the Father' beyond my own mind that is in charge. So my perceived duality is between myself as my mind and the will of the Father which is beyond my mind.
But I don't have to destroy my mind, it continues to exist, just more as a witness to what the Father wills. The Father becomes the director, but I don't identify as the Father. Maybe one day, maybe not, time will tell.
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Good afternoon django
Or it could be a different mind set, from the one you have now
__________________
Have fun and enjoy
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25-03-2019, 05:16 AM
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Master
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffin
Good afternoon django
Or it could be a different mind set, from the one you have now
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Yes it could be, like the Higher Self of the Hindu's. But even in my dreams this Higher whatever is personified as Father to me, and this is long before my interest in Christianity. In the bible it is mentioned quite often that God/the Father is unseen by everyone, yet many have claimed throughout the ages to be 'Self-realized'. So I then still have to wonder further, is Self-realization equivalent to the Father?
These are questions, I'm not presuming to have the answer, and I appreciate your suggestion.
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