How does karma works??

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

You do not have to be wronged in turn. That person whom you wronged previously may have already forgiven you from a place of love. They may choose to treat you with love, regardless of how you've treated them previously or in this lifetime. That does not mean they stick around whilst you treat them badly ad infinitum. They can send you love from a distance if need be.

Regardless, if the two of you interact, you always get to choose how treat them. Likewise they always get to choose how they treat you. You are always responsible for your own choices and how you treat others, regardless of how they've treated you in the past or vice versa.

This is the real meaning of how karma is healed and ultimately transcended...which is to simply practice authentic love in being and doing in all things. In your intent, your thought, your word, and your deed. Simply meet each moment with authentic love in being and doing.

This is the much deeper truth of "turn the other cheek", though it is a truth that is at first difficult to reconcile with our mainstream, everyday way of thinking (which is 1st-chakra based and deals in terms of basic survival, home and tribal defense, and bodily protection).

If that other person does the same, they can greet you with lovingkingness, and you can do the same. And regardless of what befell you in past lives, you can bring that same lovingkindness to your current exchange, which will help to heal and fortify you both...and which may allow you to more fully heal and reconcile the karma between you in all realms.

Peace & blessings
7L

I think we keep reverting to mechanistic view of kamma, where I do x and therefore I get y. And that's a simple surface aspect, but the more fundamental aspect is the volition behind the act. If we speak of a loving disposition as a general attitude, then the thoughts, words actions come from that place, on the other hand a bitter hateful disposition will give rise to harmful, hurtful thoughts words and deeds.

Indeed, the way we react to our circumstances is our kamma. If our circumstances are terrible, and we react with strong aversions, then what sort of thoughts, words and deeds will come forth. If we have wonderful circumstances and cling and crave more, what comes of that progression into greed?

In this way, when I am attacked I know that is my attacker's kamma, and if I accept that my attacker is generating all their negativity, then I don't see it as something I 'earned', and me being attacked is then their kamma, not mine. Not that I feel a particular love for them in particular but in my understanding, I don't enter hatred.

Possibly much of my past kamma, which are the volitions I have had in the past, acted upon or not, have come to manifestation in the attack, but kamma isn't that - kamma is only what kind of volition arises in reaction to being attacked. If I enter hateful reactivity, I create a potential of that nature, which will have to manifest in conscious awareness at some time. If it's a mild aversion then it will be short lived 'like a line drawn on the water' as they say, but if I am really overwhelmed it will cut deep 'like a line chiseled in stone', and live as trauma for a long time. Each time the trauma arises, again I freak out with reactivity, creating yet another potential.

The mind has to come to a place of its own equanimity, and if attacked, I'm not disturbed, so I don't create negative potentials - if my old trauma arises, I don't freak out at that pain, so I don't fortify it nor generate new potentials for it.

In regards to old potentials produced by old kamma, those potentials still have to come through, manifest to conscious awareness and dissolve away, but that's not my kamma. My Kamma is perpetuating all the reactivity which drives the process of rebirth.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

You do not have to be wronged in turn. That person whom you wronged previously may have already forgiven you from a place of love. They may choose to treat you with love, regardless of how you've treated them previously or in this lifetime. That does not mean they stick around whilst you treat them badly ad infinitum. They can send you love from a distance if need be.

Regardless, if the two of you interact, you always get to choose how treat them. Likewise they always get to choose how they treat you. You are always responsible for your own choices and how you treat others, regardless of how they've treated you in the past or vice versa.

This is the real meaning of how karma is healed and ultimately transcended...which is to simply practice authentic love in being and doing in all things. In your intent, your thought, your word, and your deed. Simply meet each moment with authentic love in being and doing.

This is the much deeper truth of "turn the other cheek", though it is a truth that is at first difficult to reconcile with our mainstream, everyday way of thinking (which is 1st-chakra based and deals in terms of basic survival, home and tribal defense, and bodily protection).

If that other person does the same, they can greet you with lovingkingness, and you can do the same. And regardless of what befell you in past lives, you can bring that same lovingkindness to your current exchange, which will help to heal and fortify you both...and which may allow you to more fully heal and reconcile the karma between you in all realms.

Peace & blessings
7L

I think we keep reverting to mechanistic view of kamma, where I do x and therefore I get y. And that's a simple surface aspect, but the more fundamental aspect is the volition behind the act. If we speak of a loving disposition as a general attitude, then the thoughts, words actions come from that place, on the other hand a bitter hateful disposition will give rise to harmful, hurtful thoughts words and deeds.

Indeed, the way we react to our circumstances is our kamma. If our circumstances are terrible, and we react with strong aversions, then what sort of thoughts, words and deeds will come forth. If we have wonderful circumstances and cling and crave more, what comes of that progression into greed?

In this way, when I am attacked I know that is my attacker's kamma, and if I accept that my attacker is generating all their negativity, then I don't see it as something I 'earned', and me being attacked is then their kamma, not mine. Not that I feel a particular love for them in particular but in my understanding, I don't enter hatred.

Possibly much of my past kamma, which are the volitions I have had in the past, acted upon or not, have come to manifestation in the attack, but kamma isn't that - kamma is only what volition arised in reaction to being attacked. If I enter hateful reactivity, I create a potential of that nature, which will have to manifest in conscious awareness. If it's a mild aversion then it will be short lived 'like a line drawn on the water' as they say, but if I am really overwhelmed it will cut deep 'like a line chiseled in stone', and live as trauma for a long time. Each time the trauma arises, again I freak out with reactivity, creating yet another potential.

The mind has to come to a place of its own equanimity, and if attacked, I'm not disturbed, so I don't create negative potentials - if my old trauma arises, I don't freak out at that pain, so I don't fortify it nor generate new potentials for it.

In regards to old potentials produced by old kamma, those potentials still have to come through, manifest to conscious awareness and dissolve away, but that's not my kamma. My Kamma is perpetuating all the reactivity which perpetuates new potentials and drives the process of rebirth.

[dream jo]

i do feal bad
i feal ll bad persn for dayin]i
i wish bad ahrm 2 man it robd me
evn bean told im nasty for wishin rm 2 him
bt wot e dd 2 me wz nasrty 2

but i wors him for wishin a harm 2 him

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think we keep reverting to mechanistic view of kamma, where I do x and therefore I get y. And that's a simple surface aspect, but the more fundamental aspect is the volition behind the act. If we speak of a loving disposition as a general attitude, then the thoughts, words actions come from that place, on the other hand a bitter hateful disposition will give rise to harmful, hurtful thoughts words and deeds.

Gem. hello.
Agreed...I think initially, the mechanistic way is how many first understand the concept, and then later then expand that understanding to volition, to our whole way of being and doing, and the intention behind it.

But even when speaking in a very simplistic context, it is possible to expand the concept and bring it back to our own intention, being, and doing.

Indeed, the way we react to our circumstances is our kamma. If our circumstances are terrible, and we react with strong aversions, then what sort of thoughts, words and deeds will come forth. If we have wonderful circumstances and cling and crave more, what comes of that progression into greed?

Like turning the other cheek, this at first seems counterintuitive to many, but in fact there is a deeper truth. All of which involves setting our intention in right alignment and then living from a place of equanimity and lovingkindness in each moment.

In this way, when I am attacked I know that is my attacker's kamma, and if I accept that my attacker is generating all their negativity, then I don't see it as something I 'earned', and me being attacked is then their kamma, not mine. Not that I feel a particular love for them in particular but in my understanding, I don't enter hatred.

That is a wise perspective and ultimately we all come to this place when we can attain the perspective.

I never felt I deserved to be murdered in past lives as karma for being simply a regular imperfect joe (for the most part), nor even for being a weak and spineless mum. I did feel my failures and took those to heart, of course. But nor did I ever feel the need to murder anyone in return or in any way do them harm.

Yes, I was murdered in past lives, many times, LOL, and by those closest to me. Of course, I felt a lot of pain and confusion, and after all this time, there's been no conscious, awakened reconciliation on the ground as yet for any of it.

However, despite all the violence, when I search my awareness, only the love remains. It really is an eternal and incorruptible thing. Along with deeper understandings as to the seeds of the action, to which I may have contributed. Not that it ever justifies murder. And not that retribution by me would have ever been justified in the next life. It's not my way, though.

I feel that the one thing that I did have was -- after being tortured by my twin brother, and then shot -- I now had a residual taste for being in control by means of torturing another as I'd been tortured, perhaps to regain that sense of self-control I felt had been taken from me. Perhaps to compensate for the pain of being killed by someone who is closer to you than anyone else...your own twin. Perhaps in an unfortunate twist, I was just feeling what he felt at the moment of my death, as usual, which we twins did all the time. Shattering really.

But I also realised this is just a measure of how badly we are broken by all these violent deaths...some just cut even deeper. I realised it was wrong to indulge this urge to torture and a sadistic bloodlust and that I had to consciously turn from it. My twin's indulgence in his own bloodlust is probably what ultimately led him to kill me, after all. And to this day, I think things that feed that sort of instinct are gratuitous indulgences of one's darkness and imbalance and are generally to be avoided at all costs.

Possibly much of my past kamma, which are the volitions I have had in the past, acted upon or not, have come to manifestation in the attack, but kamma isn't that - kamma is only what kind of volition arises in reaction to being attacked. If I enter hateful reactivity, I create a potential of that nature, which will have to manifest in conscious awareness at some time. If it's a mild aversion then it will be short lived 'like a line drawn on the water' as they say, but if I am really overwhelmed it will cut deep 'like a line chiseled in stone', and live as trauma for a long time. Each time the trauma arises, again I freak out with reactivity, creating yet another potential.

The mind has to come to a place of its own equanimity, and if attacked, I'm not disturbed, so I don't create negative potentials - if my old trauma arises, I don't freak out at that pain, so I don't fortify it nor generate new potentials for it.

In regards to old potentials produced by old kamma, those potentials still have to come through, manifest to conscious awareness and dissolve away, but that's not my kamma. My Kamma is perpetuating all the reactivity which drives the process of rebirth.

To sum up, if we live from a place of authentic love (lovingkindness) in intent, thought, word, and deed, then we not only live in balance with all that is, we have the opportunity in each moment to engage with others and with all that is, in ways that are truly transformative. Through the manifest outpouring and application of authentic love. The mystics called this the alchemic transmutation of the soul from lead to gold. It's really one and the same.

Peace and blessings
7L

[lemex]

Agrees it is a fresh start with information. That's all that it's about. Metaphysics and QM is how it works in this matrix. Nothing is wasted.

[Astro]

Post deleted.

Created in error.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Gem. hello.
Agreed...I think initially, the mechanistic way is how many first understand the concept, and then later then expand that understanding to volition, to our whole way of being and doing, and the intention behind it.

Sure, cause and effect isn;t as simple an Newton supposed, and in Eastern cosmology, everything is 'created' by the mind. Kamma refers to the urge to move the mind, so all things arise according to kammic law.

But even when speaking in a very simplistic context, it is possible to expand the concept and bring it back to our own intention, being, and doing.

All doings are motivated so it always comes back to the nature of one's volition in this moment. If this moment is attended to properly, the volition will cease, and that's liberation from rebirth.

Like turning the other cheek, this at first seems counterintuitive to many, but in fact there is a deeper truth. All of which involves setting our intention in right alignment and then living from a place of equanimity and lovingkindness in each moment.

It's basically about not entering into hatred when attacked abused, as the adverse reaction is the sort of kamma which can not produce good results. If they are agitated and drowning in hatred and lust of whatever drived them, that is their kamma. Not yours. If you become adversely reactive toward such abuse, that's your kamma.

That is a wise perspective and ultimately we all come to this place when we can attain the perspective.

I never felt I deserved to be murdered in past lives as karma for being simply a regular imperfect joe (for the most part), nor even for being a weak and spineless mum. I did feel my failures and took those to heart, of course. But nor did I ever feel the need to murder anyone in return or in any way do them harm.

Well, no one deserves anything. I think it's best to see all experiences as opportunity to practice mindful equanimity. Painful experiences can be beneficial to us in that way.

Yes, I was murdered in past lives, many times, LOL, and by those closest to me. Of course, I felt a lot of pain and confusion, and after all this time, there's been no conscious, awakened reconciliation on the ground as yet for any of it.

However, despite all the violence, when I search my awareness, only the love remains. It really is an eternal and incorruptible thing. Along with deeper understandings as to the seeds of the action, to which I may have contributed. Not that it ever justifies murder. And not that retribution by me would have ever been justified in the next life. It's not my way, though.

In our true nature there is undying love, and the true way of seeing sees all things with that purity. I think the great majority of people have a sense of it, as we all have a capacity for the truth, but our reactive minds keep us distracted from it, and preoccupied with our 'productions'.

I feel that the one thing that I did have was -- after being tortured by my twin brother, and then shot -- I now had a residual taste for being in control by means of torturing another as I'd been tortured, perhaps to regain that sense of self-control I felt had been taken from me. Perhaps to compensate for the pain of being killed by someone who is closer to you than anyone else...your own twin. Perhaps in an unfortunate twist, I was just feeling what he felt at the moment of my death, as usual, which we twins did all the time. Shattering really.

But I also realised this is just a measure of how badly we are broken by all these violent deaths...some just cut even deeper. I realised it was wrong to indulge this urge to torture and a sadistic bloodlust and that I had to consciously turn from it. My twin's indulgence in his own bloodlust is probably what ultimately led him to kill me, after all. And to this day, I think things that feed that sort of instinct are gratuitous indulgences of one's darkness and imbalance and are generally to be avoided at all costs.

To sum up, if we live from a place of authentic love (lovingkindness) in intent, thought, word, and deed, then we not only live in balance with all that is, we have the opportunity in each moment to engage with others and with all that is, in ways that are truly transformative. Through the manifest outpouring and application of authentic love. The mystics called this the alchemic transmutation of the soul from lead to gold. It's really one and the same.

Peace and blessings
7L

The core of this loving kindness is the greatest outpouring. It is the truth of nature's way, though many have not connected it, and once we do have the direct contact we come to understand that there is nothing to do, that we never did anything, we never will and we can not do, and this is the difference between being willful and being willing - to surrender is to forgo the will, to cease the volition.

There is no payoff. One might think their kind acts are good kamma and they'll get kindness in return, but the desire in that is the kamma, and the 'vibration' of desire will produce results, keep one in the cycle of rebirth. The whole dynamis between aversions and desire that drive people to avoid one thing and persue another brings up this 'will power' as an illusion of the mind's reactivity. The meditation is where this dynamic ceases, and 'you' stop, and healing begins.

[Busby]

To look upon Karma as a force seperate from yourself and somehow adhering to some spiritual state or condition isn't how it works. There is no-one keeping tally except you.

If you need to know how your Karma is doing all you have to do is look into the mirror or observe yourself sitting in front of your PC screen reading these words.

The person you are; how you look; what you do; who you know; if you are fat or thin; young or old; happy or unhappy, is all to do directly with you and the way you have chosen to live in a state of consciousness and to continually decide. You have, in total, from that which was available, chosen the way that has led to you sitting where you are together with a lot of other people; your wife, your dad, your neighbour, the villagers, all the townspeople, the city's inhabitants, your landsmen and women, your continent, the planet's other inhabitants, the galaxy you are in and, at the end, the universe.

There is nothing else. What you are today is the sum total of everything and in this everything you have the place you have earned. Each of us is that part of the whole in which we have our place.

Good and evil are on the same axle, to get the best karma each of us has to find the middle way - the way of keeping balance. There will never be anything else and there is no way of ensuring that in your next life you will be rich, beautiful, have a lovely voice, or be another Napoleon.

Every thing and everything has its two sides. You choose the side, at any given time, which you think to be right but you have to contend with 8 billion other people each of whom thinks that he/she is right too. In addition there are also the other conscious forms on the planet all busy reaching for the sun and the best lunch.

Dropping an atom bomb on Hiroshima wasn't the result of a collective karma it was the result of all that had gone before.

It will always be so. It's the most enticing and fantastic thing there is. We couldn't ask for more.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

Sure, cause and effect isn;t as simple an Newton supposed, and in Eastern cosmology, everything is 'created' by the mind. Kamma refers to the urge to move the mind, so all things arise according to kammic law.


All doings are motivated so it always comes back to the nature of one's volition in this moment. If this moment is attended to properly, the volition will cease, and that's liberation from rebirth.

Gem, hello!
Agreed. I have long understood that to mean liberation from unconscious rebirth, in that we would bring greater volition in consciousness to every moment and effect choices with greater intention and awareness, if and when we do reincarnate. That is, all would ideally reflect our conscious choices.

It's basically about not entering into hatred when attacked abused, as the adverse reaction is the sort of kamma which can not produce good results. If they are agitated and drowning in hatred and lust of whatever drived them, that is their kamma. Not yours. If you become adversely reactive toward such abuse, that's your kamma.

That's true. Whilst we all have grievances and may feel anger when our bodies are traumatised and/or our principles violated or abrogated, this is where we have opportunity for growth, after the often necessary period of healing and restoration from the experience(s). Again, though, the greatest violations (murder, torture, many others) do not necessarily ever result in hatred towards the perpetrator. In my past-life or other-life experiences, I felt pain and confusion and heartbreak -- perhaps some resultant long-term numbness like a PSTD which I've had to sit with on occasion -- but no hatred, ever.

I am not certain what drives folks into a place of hatred, but it's not necessarily being killed or tortured prior to death, even repeatedly across lifetimes. It may very well be that other non-lethal forms of harm are experienced as more of a violation leading to hatred...like rape, long-term torture, or longstanding oppression, abuse, cruelty, and brutality. Not sure if there is any literature on this in Buddhist circles or not (or anywhere else).

Well, no one deserves anything. I think it's best to see all experiences as opportunity to practice mindful equanimity. Painful experiences can be beneficial to us in that way.

Absolutely they can. And that's exactly the conclusion I've come to as well. You don't know why others do what they do, nor why they say what they say -- I don't, anyway, hahaha. However, you can detach from expectation and simply accept what is. And in so doing, you receive peace and fortitude...a sublime joy...from your choices. It gives a great ease and boost to acquaintanceships, friendships and familial relationships, where you are free to be and do lovingkindness. And to receive others as they are.

I find partnerships much less appealing now, however, due to the heavily conditional perspectives and the grasping most of humanity bring to this type of relationship. Having to navigate demands that I debase and prostitute myself physically to "participate" in this type of relationship is extremely unappealing. And fairly tiresome. Thankfully, the appeal of lovingkindness available in other relationships is much stronger and counterbalances the other.

I like to think that all humanity will primarily relate this way to one another and to all that is, in future. With authentic love, manifest in lovingkindness. And IMO it's also the clear choice for a sustainable future on earth, both with one another and regarding Gaia.

In our true nature there is undying love, and the true way of seeing sees all things with that purity. I think the great majority of people have a sense of it, as we all have a capacity for the truth, but our reactive minds keep us distracted from it, and preoccupied with our 'productions'.

The core of this loving kindness is the greatest outpouring. It is the truth of nature's way, though many have not connected it, and once we do have the direct contact we come to understand that there is nothing to do, that we never did anything, we never will and we can not do, and this is the difference between being willful and being willing - to surrender is to forgo the will, to cease the volition.

I think there is a middle ground in both understanding our true nature is authentic love, that this is all we are and it is all that is -- and also in bringing both our being and our will to the moment, specifically to be and do the love we are, in alignment with our centre. In this way, we meet the now and what is arising from all that has gone before with lovingkindness and with conscious awareness and conscious choices that align with our centre.

Perhaps the love we bring to the moment creates opportunities for reconciliation, which would be fortuitous...and if so, we can engage in them. If not, the love we bring is all we are and all we can be and do in the moment, and it is enough.

There is no payoff. One might think their kind acts are good kamma and they'll get kindness in return, but the desire in that is the kamma, and the 'vibration' of desire will produce results, keep one in the cycle of rebirth. The whole dynamis between aversions and desire that drive people to avoid one thing and persue another brings up this 'will power' as an illusion of the mind's reactivity. The meditation is where this dynamic ceases, and 'you' stop, and healing begins.

Yes that's very true. Agreed that the manifestation of lovingkindness is its own reward, and likewise there is also the joy in service that it brings or may bring to self and others.

In the same vein, if you receive unkindness or cruelty or abuse, you can decide to remove yourself if at all possible. Often is may not be possible. But I believe that honouring the self equally to all others allow for boundaries is important to a fuller understanding of right alignment in authentic love, which seeks the highest good of all, including your own highest good equally to others.

We may not like being abused, but more importantly, it is misaligned and if we have opportunity to remove ourselves, I think this is exercising a reasonable balance between acceptance, and living in right alignment both within oneself and with others and all that is.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Busby

To look upon Karma as a force seperate from yourself and somehow adhering to some spiritual state or condition isn't how it works. There is no-one keeping tally except you.

If you need to know how your Karma is doing all you have to do is look into the mirror or observe yourself sitting in front of your PC screen reading these words.

The person you are; how you look; what you do; who you know; if you are fat or thin; young or old; happy or unhappy, is all to do directly with you and the way you have chosen to live in a state of consciousness and to continually decide. You have, in total, from that which was available, chosen the way that has led to you sitting where you are together with a lot of other people; your wife, your dad, your neighbour, the villagers, all the townspeople, the city's inhabitants, your landsmen and women, your continent, the planet's other inhabitants, the galaxy you are in and, at the end, the universe.

There is nothing else. What you are today is the sum total of everything and in this everything you have the place you have earned. Each of us is that part of the whole in which we have our place.

Good and evil are on the same axle, to get the best karma each of us has to find the middle way - the way of keeping balance. There will never be anything else and there is no way of ensuring that in your next life you will be rich, beautiful, have a lovely voice, or be another Napoleon.

Every thing and everything has its two sides. You choose the side, at any given time, which you think to be right but you have to contend with 8 billion other people each of whom thinks that he/she is right too. In addition there are also the other conscious forms on the planet all busy reaching for the sun and the best lunch.

Dropping an atom bomb on Hiroshima wasn't the result of a collective karma it was the result of all that had gone before.

It will always be so. It's the most enticing and fantastic thing there is. We couldn't ask for more.

Busby - hello! I really like how you've stressed how ultimately karma is the sum total of who and what we are in each now moment.

And also, how we can't get away from who we are...we have only to look in the mirror.
I think many do try to avoid or run away from self-reflection.
Whilst others find it, as you say, quite fascinating, the entire journey and becoming more self-aware along the way.

Peace & blessings
7L