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  #31  
Old 09-12-2019, 06:12 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Originally Posted by Dustin
Had to look up teleology: "The philosophical interpretation of natural phenomena as exhibiting purpose or design." - included as a note to self, plus for others.

Somewhat. I would say that my theory has made use of priorly existing philosophical interpretations, such helped to guide its development a bit however the theory just so happens to agree with each new scientific discovery which I come across and I've been told from someone who would know that my theory dirived unique interpretation of what happens in a blackhole actually agrees with General Relativity.

In short, teleological arguments are human projections and avoid describing phenomena as they are. For instance, it's known that viruses and bacteria can develop resistance to medicine, or that birds, elephants, and hominids can grow to larger or smaller sizes on islands. There is no 'purpose' or inherent 'goal' in any of this, or any conscious decision to 'become' different. Every species is as good as it can adapt to its environment. There is nothing that suggests life is ''moving'' or ''evolving'' with any 'goal' in mind. What works works and what doesn't work fades away. A large comet could wipe us and many intelligent mammals out so where would that leave consciousness as we know it?

If we develop a ''model'' (or alternatively, a workable spiritual belief system) it necessarily has to incorporate natural selection and non-linearity. Randomness is necessary too, where climate change, plate tectonics, and comets, among other things, impact the journey of life.

When we really start observing nature we are presented with a radically different world than the one we were told to believe when reading Genesis or the Koran, or the one that the bearded guru talked about. The great thing about science is that it transcends the cultural trappings and the stories. I am really curious how you would 'combine' the observable, established facts with your views on consciousness.

And if consciousness ''created'' the universe, and it in turn ''created'' consciousness than what does consciousness mean to you?

Could you agree that there could actually be no objective 'goal' whatsoever in the universe and everything simply is an unguided 'experiment' by itself?
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  #32  
Old Yesterday, 02:05 PM
Dustin Dustin is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
In short, teleological arguments are human projections and avoid describing phenomena as they are. For instance, it's known that viruses and bacteria can develop resistance to medicine, or that birds, elephants, and hominids can grow to larger or smaller sizes on islands.

ya projections, even in science, are hard to avoid and are often wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
There is no 'purpose' or inherent 'goal' in any of this, or any conscious decision to 'become' different.

What if there is but that we just don't know what it is yet.

There was a particular cell biologist that I was listening to a while back who was talking about how bacteria prefer “good vibes”, I forget to what and how the bacteria responded but there was some sort of response. Oh that's what it was he was talking about how so much of everything has been equated to genes but what he is finding in his experiments is that the growing medium is possibly more important then the gene. He had made clones of some sort of simple organism/structure or what ever it was, I want to say that it was a stem cell but I don't remember, he then grew the clones in different mediums and found that the medium resulted in, I want to say, greater amounts of change in what the cell became then would have occurred if the variable had been just gene type and not medium – I'm going have to review that one, I have his name and work written down somewhere. He then went on to talk about how in the human being the growing medium is controlled by how we feel, when we feel stress, anxiety, fear we release certain compounds which effect the growing medium and effect how we feel. He talked about how when we are in the presents of a person who well be beneficial to us we feel good, our gut or what ever it is produces a reaction which causes the release of chemicals in the brain that cause a person to feel slightly better. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that perhaps much of the intent/goal in life might be equated towards making the best decisions we can based in limited information.

As far as the connection between bacteria and the mind, I can attest to that one, I, a month ago, started taking a pro-biotic which produced a number of effects. In doing research on it I read about a gut-brain connection and about all of the various hormonal and neurotransmitter effects good gut health results in; one of which is that it causes, as I have very much noticed, an increase release of Serotonin.

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Originally Posted by Altair
Every species is as good as it can adapt to its environment. There is nothing that suggests life is ''moving'' or ''evolving'' with any 'goal' in mind.

honesty I haven't studied this bit of it enough to be able to say anything to it. I have heard of and watched a short documentary about intelligent design, which brings up issues for argument in the other direction however as I said I haven't done the research.

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Originally Posted by Altair
What works works and what doesn't work fades away. A large comet could wipe us and many intelligent mammals out so where would that leave consciousness as we know it?

Consciousness then would be left to an earlier less realized state. In the model that I work with cataclysmic change wouldn't change anything, it would just slow a tiny spec of it all down – eventually everything gets sorted out. Catholicism, in my model, can even produce rapid sorting all at once, which would be beneficial towards consciousness (not to human consciousness but to consciousness) – two examples of rapid sorting occur at the moment of the collapse of a star and when two black holes collide.

The idea of holding on to human concepts of existence and experience are not ones that I hold dear – consciousness is not human but humans are conscious.

What are your thoughts on death, is it lights out and that's it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
If we develop a ''model'' (or alternatively, a workable spiritual belief system) it necessarily has to incorporate natural selection and non-linearity. Randomness is necessary too, where climate change, plate tectonics, and comets, among other things, impact the journey of life.

agreed, natural selection, evolution, and deterministic view points of the universe and of the mind are things which are a part of my model. The deterministic view point and its opposite are two view points which argue from a perspective that is different from the one that I have. I think the best way to explain this is to mention what metaphysics is and how it has been structured into models. Metaphysics is a branch of study which seeks to understand how the mind, our ability to think and to be conscious relates to physics. Some time within the last 50 year, I have the information somewhere but don't want to look for it right now, the idea of wondering about how the mind might relates to physics was organized into 3 different basic models: mind out of matter (deterministic viewpoints of evolution), mind and matter (that the two exist but are different), and matter out of mind (that mind creates matter such as some sort of projection or whatever). For my model it might be thought that it would be aether fit into the matter out of mind model or that it would be a new division as matter out of mind and then mind out of matter, but actually it's a four basic division which says that mind and matter are the same thing. So for me it doesn't make any difference if a change, for instance in how a person feels, is caused by the introduction of a compound or if a compound was caused to release based in a change in how the person felt with regard to external stimuli – the introduction of a compound, perhaps orally taken, is a matter inducted change on consciousness [the difference, in the human being, in mind and matter, in this current sentence, is solidification of energy (E=mc2) and self identification], the release of a compound based in a change in how the person feels is a change in a material structure caused to change by consciousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
When we really start observing nature we are presented with a radically different world than the one we were told to believe when reading Genesis or the Koran, or the one that the bearded guru talked about.

I suppose my views are radically different than when I was younger, just thought it was funny that you used the phrasing “When we really start observing nature” since my degree is in Horticulture, I work in the field, and am an avid backpacker so for most of my life observing nature is what I've been doing; however, I'm sure more of what was intended was the sorts of experiments which reveal the sorts of things that you had mentioned, not the sorts of things that might typically be noticed though simple observation but more of the sort of things which require greater inquiry.

The reason I have belief in things actually has nothing to do with reading the claims of some person, in my life I've had a lot of unusual experiences; for instance, I believe in Aum because I've lived in a state of Aum for five months; even in this moment I hear the sound which emanates from the vibration of Aum. I also have personal experienced based reasons for belief in: life beyond the physical body, God, and a model of reality which relates to the mind. Much of what I've read, with regard to “bearded” teachers has only been read because I was trying to further understand things I had already experienced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
The great thing about science is that it transcends the cultural trappings and the stories. I am really curious how you would 'combine' the observable, established facts with your views on consciousness.

Things of spirituality transcend as well, Aum is something that is prevalent in a great number of cultures, I think I once read of 60 different culturally produced names for the experience – in each of the cultures however the experience was described as being the same.

Science has its own stories. Data is not a story, but our interpretations of data is.

I do my best to have and develop thoughts which are accurate. When something I come across disagrees with what I think then I greatly look into the subject and if the subject still holds up then I change my belief – this process of change has been common through the development of my model.

Perhaps there is a specific “established fact” that you would like for me to address, with regard to my model?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
And if consciousness ''created'' the universe, and it in turn ''created'' consciousness than what does consciousness mean to you?

I don't know, it's the source, it has various properties; some of its properties, perhaps many, may be unfamiliar to me. Can you be more specific in what your asking? When you wrote the question what sort of thoughts did its inquisition product in you; what would consciousness mean to you if consciousness both preceded the inanimate and arose from it?

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Originally Posted by Altair
Could you agree that there could actually be no objective 'goal' whatsoever in the universe and everything simply is an unguided 'experiment' by itself?

No I suppose I couldn't agree that there could be no objective goal whatsoever in the universe; an easy example of an objective goal existing in the universe would be a group of people who have the same goal in mind.

As for the creation and evolution of the universe, yes it is possible that it's all just an unguided experiment however as I said that wouldn't bother me in that I think that mind and matter are one and the same. My model also deals in variant states of reality (such the same, in a sense, as in variant states of matter ie liquid, gas, solid) and it redefines the individual self (some times what and how we think is a product of our selves and sometimes it come in from outside our selves) so both of these things greatly limit the effects that might be considered through various sort of impositions.
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  #33  
Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
In short, teleological arguments are human projections and avoid describing phenomena as they are. For instance, it's known that viruses and bacteria can develop resistance to medicine, or that birds, elephants, and hominids can grow to larger or smaller sizes on islands.

Dustin: ya projections, even in science, are hard to avoid and are often wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
There is no 'purpose' or inherent 'goal' in any of this, or any conscious decision to 'become' different.

Dustin: What if there is but that we just don't know what it is yet.

Hi Dustin..

Basically, there are no 'goals' in natural selection. On smaller islands, due to lack of large mammal predators, birds can evolve into flightless birds as it is no longer necessary. See New Zealand or South America (before the Great American Interchange). Here is evolution by natural selection simplified: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evoli...article/evo_25. With natural selection we can understand that there is no necessity for design. If we add spirituality to the mix than this 'aspect' - soul/spirit/divinity - is not ''creation'' as we understand it through religion, but something that has not been defined or investigated properly yet in spiritual traditions. This to me comes as no surprise as there is a general distaste for the ''material world'' so who still wants to study nature in spiritual communities?

Now obviously one can imagine that even all the changes in nature are 'guided' but if that actually happens than it is incredibly random and meaningless to the point where 'guidance' and design become irrelevant and are unnecessary for explaining phenomena. The journey of life, and how it is influenced by climate change, plate tectonics, natural disasters, and comets further necessitate the recognition of purposelessness in nature. Our gut bacteria co-evolved with us. There is no teleological basis for a healthy symbiotic relationship between our a human and the microbiota.

Dustin: ''Consciousness then would be left to an earlier less realized state. In the model that I work with cataclysmic change wouldn't change anything, it would just slow a tiny spec of it all down – eventually everything gets sorted out.''

Alternatively it could lead to something drastically different than we know or experience it (< consciousness). Our experience of self awareness is unique to us, but then nature is dotted with all sorts of fascinating and unique things that show us that we really aren't extraordinarily crown-worthy above the rest of organisms. We single out our experience but take a look at microbes, or coral, or some of these:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...-species-2011/

Dustin: ''The idea of holding on to human concepts of existence and experience are not ones that I hold dear – consciousness is not human but humans are conscious.

What are your thoughts on death, is it lights out and that's it?
''



The notion that nature is 'moving' or species are 'evolving' into something specific and 'becoming' more 'conscious' are anthropocentric as this is how we view our day-to-day lives and activities. As conscious human beings we work towards goals and invest in meaning and morality to various degrees.

My thoughts on death are that we live on in some form elsewhere, however I don't really prefer to get into any detail about it as that would be a speculative (religious) exercise that does not provide me with any wisdom. I'm here now, alive and physical, and cannot pretend to know what will happen to me upon death and where I will go. When the ''afterlife'' is discussed we basically share our religious beliefs with one another. I'm like ''cool story bro'' but what use is any of it to me? Unless we're there we cannot really know.


Dustin:'' No I suppose I couldn't agree that there could be no objective goal whatsoever in the universe; an easy example of an objective goal existing in the universe would be a group of people who have the same goal in mind.''

This relates to social relationships between humans, but this does not relate to the universe at large. You and me having goals in our lives does not mean the universe at large is having a goal or moving towards a predetermined outcome.

Dustin: ''As for the creation and evolution of the universe, yes it is possible that it's all just an unguided experiment however as I said that wouldn't bother me in that I think that mind and matter are one and the same.''


What does 'mind' mean to you?
I view the mind as how we experience our brain activity, the total sum of our thoughts, memories, emotional experience, and rational exercise. I do not believe the mind is an entity in and of itself, not a noun but instead a collection of verbs. How can this human 'mind' be a key building block of the universe?? Or do you really mean 'spirit'??
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  #34  
Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM
UniverseWonder UniverseWonder is offline
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Even though I can understand where they are all coming from and disagree on a few ideas (not saying what as I don't want to spend time debating) all Personally When 5 Different Scientist, all agree and have real proven evidence on the subconscious then I might just start listening. But for me, I listen to my subconscious and the sound of the universe.
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  #35  
Old Yesterday, 10:47 PM
Dustin Dustin is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
Dustin: ''As for the creation and evolution of the universe, yes it is possible that it's all just an unguided experiment however as I said that wouldn't bother me in that I think that mind and matter are one and the same.''


What does 'mind' mean to you?
I view the mind as how we experience our brain activity, the total sum of our thoughts, memories, emotional experience, and rational exercise. I do not believe the mind is an entity in and of itself, not a noun but instead a collection of verbs. How can this human 'mind' be a key building block of the universe?? Or do you really mean 'spirit'??

my use of the word mind in that sentence was in reference to the earlier mentioned stuff about metaphysical models of reality as organized and defined by the work of another.

to understand how I understand the mind and consciousness check out the book Hands Of Light by Barbra Ann Brennan
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  #36  
Old Today, 02:24 AM
Dustin Dustin is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
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Originally Posted by Altair
There is no 'purpose' or inherent 'goal' in any of this, or any conscious decision to 'become' different.

Dustin: What if there is but that we just don't know what it is yet.

….

With natural selection we can understand that there is no necessity for design.

More of what I was talking about was not a design created by a higher being or higher/larger consciousness, what I was talking about was a goal within the individual organism and larger species group - that perhaps posses an urge which may or may not ever come into existance but it's the thought that the tendencies of an individuals life time may effect genetic change to come in later generations. If such where possible then that would be a goal.
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[color="Green"][size="1"]Offspring The Meaning of Life:
By the way - I know your path has been tried and so - It may seem like the way to go - Me, I'd rather be found - Trying something new - I gotta go find my own way - I gotta go make my own mistakes - Sorry for feeling, feeling the way I do
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  #37  
Old Today, 02:36 AM
Dustin Dustin is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
If we add spirituality to the mix than this 'aspect' - soul/spirit/divinity - is not ''creation'' as we understand it through religion,
I don't believe I would fit what you would consider to be a religious person - my full focus from the beginning has been from a spiritual stand point.

I don't think I divide mind-soul-spirit-divinity in the same way as you do.
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  #38  
Old Today, 03:01 AM
Dustin Dustin is offline
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Now obviously one can imagine that even all the changes in nature are 'guided' but if that actually happens than it is incredibly random and meaningless to the point where 'guidance' and design become irrelevant and are unnecessary for explaining phenomena.

all changes in nature are guided by the basic priciples of physics and chemistry which as I stated works in a mind is matter, matter is mind model of reality. Also I think your imagining something entirely different than I am when we're talking about design. I talked about consciousness being animate then becoming inanimate then becoming animate once again. Inanimate has no ability to guide/design/or cause a change, other than field over lap or injestion or what not; by field over lap I mean that inanimate massive bodies create gravitational fields which effect things which pass into those fields. At both of the animate points, before (which is a spacetime, dimensional, reference and may in all moments still exist and in accordance to physics would be able to incure change in that at the moment prior to the Big Bang physical laws break down to a point that physics well say that pretty much anything could be possible) the creation of the universe and in the current moment in which orgainisms have evolved to a point of higher awareness, a change I believe would be possible.
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[color="Green"][size="1"]Offspring The Meaning of Life:
By the way - I know your path has been tried and so - It may seem like the way to go - Me, I'd rather be found - Trying something new - I gotta go find my own way - I gotta go make my own mistakes - Sorry for feeling, feeling the way I do
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  #39  
Old Today, 03:12 AM
Dustin Dustin is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
Dustin: ''Consciousness then would be left to an earlier less realized state. In the model that I work with cataclysmic change wouldn't change anything, it would just slow a tiny spec of it all down eventually everything gets sorted out.''

Alternatively it could lead to something drastically different than we know or experience it (< consciousness). Our experience of self awareness is unique to us, but then nature is dotted with all sorts of fascinating and unique things that show us that we really aren't extraordinarily crown-worthy above the rest of organisms.

Cataclysmic change has often lead to differing organisms coming into existence but no your alternative wouldn't work because I had in a scentence left out of your quote defined consciousness as: "consciousness is not human but humans are consciousness". What I was saying was that consciousness is a property of existence and this property would still exist with or without the extinction of a species on a planet - humans are not special; they are conscious but as I've stated the term I apply to all organisms, to planets, and to much more.
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By the way - I know your path has been tried and so - It may seem like the way to go - Me, I'd rather be found - Trying something new - I gotta go find my own way - I gotta go make my own mistakes - Sorry for feeling, feeling the way I do
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