Where Do We Go at Death if not heaven or hell?

[sky]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

I would characterise it like this Sky/Vince:

Re-incarnation was found among Gnostics with the odd church father being sympathetic i think (Origen?)

Certainly the budding early church appeared to not be into re-incarnation, i would agree with that

If Sky wants to argue that the original Jesus people did in fact believe in it but it got removed, well then that is a personal belief she has and it's got a few crumbs of support in some places here and there, but this is getting into personal beliefs very much

So reincarnation was not found in the early Church apart from in groups of Christians outside the mainstream and on the fringes of orthadoxy, but it was found in them.

Its personal beliefs though in the end I think

I wasn't arguing btw I was just pointing out. Documents regarding the 5th Ecumenical Council is proof that Reincarnation was part of Early Christianity . Why was this decree stated.



“If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. (The Anathemas against Origen), attached to the decrees of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, A.D. 545, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d ser., 14: 318).”


Pope Vigilius was actually arrested for his belief in Reincarnation so we can assume that many did believe as he did not just a few.

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by sky123

Do you personally think that Soul and Spirit are different.?

I don't think I do no. Do you define them differently?

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by sky123

I wasn't arguing btw I was just pointing out. Documents regarding the 5th Ecumenical Council is proof that Reincarnation was part of Early Christianity . Why was this decree stated.



“If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. (The Anathemas against Origen), attached to the decrees of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, A.D. 545, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d ser., 14: 318).”


Pope Vigilius was actually arrested for his belief in Reincarnation so we can assume that many did believe as he did not just a few.

This is absurd. They were simply preventing the corruption of the original church teachings because there were groups who were distorting the true word. This in no way proves that reincarnation was a part of early Christian teachings. What you need is Biblical manuscript evidence. Do you have this?

[sky]

[quote=VinceField]This is absurd. They were simply preventing the corruption of the original church teachings because there were groups who were distorting the true word. This in no way proves that reincarnation was a part of early Christian teachings. What you need is Biblical manuscript evidence. Do you have this?[/Quote



It is absurd that people were threatened and arrested for their beliefs..... But what do you expect from the ' Powers Above ' keep the masses under control ......

[sky]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

I don't think I do no. Do you define them differently?

I don't believe in a soul JB, gave that up as a child

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by sky123

I don't believe in a soul JB, gave that up as a child

I don't think I ever thought about soul/spirit when I was a child at all.

What are your beliefs now? That's if you have any spiritual beliefs of course.

[sky]

St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that “it is absolutely necessary that the soul be healed and purified; and if that did not occur during life on earth, it should be done in future lives.”


“Each soul comes into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of its previous life… Your actions in that world determine your place in this world (on earth) which must determine the next one…” Origen Adamantius.



What pious ears could bear to hear that after a life spent in so many and severe distresses (if, indeed, that should be called a life at all which is rather a death, so utter that the love of this present death makes us fear that death which delivers us from it). St Augustine.


" Father, grant that my soul may merge into the light, and be no more thrust back into the illusion of earth."
Synesius Bishop of Ptolemais.


A few more.....
Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr and St.Jerome also believed in the doctrine of Reincarnation.

Lots more if anyone is interested..... Just search around.

[sky]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

I don't think I ever thought about soul/spirit when I was a child at all.

What are your beliefs now? That's if you have any spiritual beliefs of course.

Spirit rather than soul.
I was ' Spoon fed ' souls in a Roman Catholic School and could never work out what a soul was, it never made any sense to me so I put in a box and threw in into the ' Reject Bin '

Originally Posted by sky123

Spirit rather than soul.
I was ' Spoon fed ' souls in a Roman Catholic School and could never work out what a soul was, it never made any sense to me so I put in a box and threw in into the ' Reject Bin '

I guess I can't be your soul brother.

Originally Posted by Morpheus

The thing people miss regarding reasoning about reincarnation involves how science today states time (related with space and gravity), is an illusion.

Which alone indicates the true nature of the material world, and universe.
Reincarnation of course is all about linear time, and successive lifetimes.
Again, which is illusory.

The actual and greater reality of reincarnation then is about emanation, and radiance, not successive and repeated lifetimes.
Which would involve multi-world, and dimensional theories in science.
All concurrent, and not successive.

True, but then traditional judeo-christian belief would have the same issue. One is born, lives, dies, gets judged, and hops a shuttle to heaven or hell, where they spend eternity in linear time. I think you are right that science does seem to indicate that space-time is an illusory experience that emerges from an underlying .... more foundational?...quantum mechanical reality. However, whether that underlying more foundational reality itself has some form of progression or time, is currently beyond the ability of science to discern. I like to think there is, but that is more faith than science. Frankly, regardless of what the science says, I don't think our human mind can conceive of a physical reality that does not have both space and time. Mathematically we may be able to calculate it, but try to physically envision this, and we go back to spacetime. But that is perhaps a limitation of us, not reality.