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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Death & The Afterlife

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  #21  
Old 12-11-2015, 03:42 AM
wmsm wmsm is offline
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If a human did not have brain function, then how would it perceive other information?

What you must be implying is that other information does not exist unless a human brain says it does, which then imposes that the consideration of information is a human thought factor.

This itself proves that the human mind who considers itself all knowing is not all knowing at all...called ego actually.

Self experience has demonstrated to thousands of human beings, the existence of spirit without a physical form.

If you were not present in life to witness and think using your brain to think, then how would you be informed about other information?
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  #22  
Old 14-11-2015, 02:05 PM
Lord_Viskey Lord_Viskey is offline
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"We cannot escape the fact that the world we know is constructed in order (and thus in such a way as to be able) to see itself. But in order to do so, evidently it must first cut itself up into at least one state which sees, and at least one other state which is seen" ~ G. Spencer Brown

According to Amit Goswami PhD., the emergence of the ego is the result of this subject-object division which itself gives us (as sentient creatures) the tangled hierarchy which identifies the self with the locus of our past experiences that we call ego. The brain-mind is a dual quantum system/measuring apparatus. This makes it unique in that it is the place where the self-reference of the entire universe happens. The universe is self-aware through us. In us, the universe cuts itself in two -- into subject and object. Upon observation by the brain-mind, consciousness collapses the wave function by acting self-referentially, and not dualistically.

In what way does a self-referential system differ from a simple combination of quantum object and measurement apparatus? The brain's measurement apparatus makes a memory of every collapse -- every experience that we have in response to certain stimuli. Additionally, if the same, or similar stimuli is presented again, the brain's classicalrecord replays the old memory, which itself becomes a secondary stimulus to the quantum system. ... Each previously experienced, learned response reinforces the probability of the same response over again. ... When the creative potency of the quantum component is not engaged, the tangled hierarchy of the interacting components of the brain-mind, in effect, becomes a simple hierarchy of the learned, classical programs. When mental programs respond in the simplistic hierarchical system,, creative uncertainty, as to "who is the chooser" of a conscious experience is removed; we begin to assume a separate, individual self (ego) that chooses and that has a free will.

The system, developing in relatively unambiguous states, is merely a series of processes in the secondary experiences having distinctive qualities, such as habitual motor activity, thoughts (for example: I did this), but the learned programs are still part of the tangled hierarchy - we cannot find their "causal chain" that corresponds to the role of the quantum system when it has collapsed from the nonlocal consciousness. this is called a "discontinuity". It is obscured and interpreted as an act of the free will of a (pseudo-) self; it is then followed by the (false) identification of the nonlocal subject with a limited individual self associated with the learned programs, or "ego".

The ego is merely our classical self. nTo be sure, our consciousness is ultimately unitive and is at the transcendent level, or, "inviolate" level. From inside physical space-time (from the point of view of the classical programs of our brain-mind), we become possessed by individual identity: ego. From inside, little able to discover our system's tangled hierarchical nature, we claim free will to mask our assumed limitedness. The limitedness arises from accepting the point of view of the learned programs causally acting on one another. In ignorance we identify with a limited version of the cosmic subject; we conclude, I am this body-mind.
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  #23  
Old 14-11-2015, 03:45 PM
Rokon Rokon is offline
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I liked Goswami when I read his material years ago. Important stuff. Its good to be informed but the structure and choice of words here feels like another subtle attempt to create a bogyman and call it the ego. A way to get us to feel like our human experience is not divinely inspired but a great deception which must be transcended. Bogyman ego is created by the great deceiver (discontinuity) and keeps it in the prison of a "classical self" and hides the transcendent state.

It's an all too familiar view these days that feels like spiritual conspiracy theory.
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  #24  
Old 14-11-2015, 03:47 PM
metal68 metal68 is offline
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Im in the process of ordering Goswami's Self Aware Universe from Amazon UK. Just under a tenner. Im just hoping its better than the Deepak Chopra book I read once!
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  #25  
Old 14-11-2015, 06:47 PM
Frederick33 Frederick33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metal68
This would be a hammer blow for survival hopes, would it not??

I kind of dread this happening somehow. How then could a mind generated by a living brain, continue existence without one??
your question is a good one

I found the brain is a multidimensional thing
it works on different levels even where there is no sold matter
(higher dimensions)
you still have a brain
I also found each way of looking at it gives that reality of workings
from the brain , you can limit it or make it do much more
well the concept of brain as lump of meat is very limited
some how the brain sits in that brain
and if you die your brain goes with you but made of energies alone
sure all matter is made of energy fields
but seeing these as solid mater is a limitation
and a very common one as most seem to experience just that :-)

you figure it out , if you like or want or care :-)

its your question . not mine :-)
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  #26  
Old 14-11-2015, 06:58 PM
Kerubiel Kerubiel is offline
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the brain and the body are manifest by our awareness, our knowledge and our perception. our will and our intent. indeed to transform your brain, and body, as recent neuroscience has discovered one needs only to intend and to imagine the way.
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  #27  
Old 01-12-2015, 03:35 PM
ForeverNoobish ForeverNoobish is offline
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I believe the heart is our spirits transformer, linking our spirit to this material body and I don't believe science will ever prove otherwise. If anything I believe quantum mechanics is more likely to prove our consciosness is linked to another dimension.
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  #28  
Old 03-12-2015, 04:28 AM
Lord_Viskey Lord_Viskey is offline
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Well, I didn't want this posted twice (post #29 & 30), but can't figure out how to delete something once its been typed... sorry 'bout that. The thing was intended to be placed after post #20
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  #29  
Old 03-12-2015, 04:38 AM
Lord_Viskey Lord_Viskey is offline
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Quote:
...it brings up another aspect of consciousness that I rarely hear being discussed. That is the part of consciousness that maintains the form of the body "unconsciously".

We could be speaking about archetypes. These are said to maintain forms (but this can't apply to [i]just [i] "physical bodies"). I don't mean to use the word "archetypal" in the Platonist sense that: "the world (or an object) as it existed in the Mind of the Deity", but in the sense of "the world (or an object) made as a first model". The first model of any body (astral or otherwise) probably retains a specific archetypal distinction.

In Jungian usage, the instincts and primordial psychic processes of the collective unconscious would allow for the unconscious "shapes" to appear as consciously "perceived" objects - they would, as Rokon says, "maintain the form of the body" because these bodies are universal psychic structures.

If, as in C. Jung's usage, the "self" being the regulating center of the psyche and facilitator of individuation - the "representative of that wholeness which the introspective philosophy of all times and climes has characterized with an inexhaustible variety of symbols, names and concepts.... (yeah, I'm quoting someone else's lingo here ), then the archetype represents all that is unique within a human being, hence a retention of form (specific form, as in; a "maintained identity").
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  #30  
Old 31-12-2015, 01:49 AM
metal68 metal68 is offline
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back to consciousness, I still wonder if despite consciousness being able to leave the confines of the body & brain MAYBE, it may still need that brain to transmit it out. So yes consciousness can exist out of the body but it cant exist independently of the body. NDE/OBE/AP all use a living brain. but no living brain could still be no consciousness even if it can extend beyond the brain in life.

Consciousness outside the body does not in any way mean consciousness exists after death necessarily??
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