What will happen to the materialistic non-believers?

Originally Posted by Altair

Yeah.. it’s very easy to believe and also conjure up all sorts of elaborate explanations for why bad things happen, but in the end it seems something that we can’t escape. I could even argue that humans are way more moral than ‘God’, who could be viewed as imperfect by allowing every manner of suffering imaginable possible. Mankind would do well to seek physical immortality, if not as a big FY than just as a way to show the errors in pop spiritual thinking, haha..

I think a lot of people do keep their “faith” though, GreenSlade, even when stuff like you describe happens, although it’s totally understandable if people lose “faith”. I’m not much of a faith guy myself, everything is action and consequence, and using past lives or future lives isn’t my cup of tea for justifying the present (although it’s probably true to some extent it’s also incredibly speculative and subjective)..

It's human nature to try and find some rhyme or reason for things happening, to try and make some sense of it all even when there's nothing you can think of, and I'd think that Spirituality would add another layer to the mix. It's something that people have been doing for thousands of years. I don't think there's anything wrong with it as long as what we're coming out with retains high degrees of honesty, and that our answers are only going to be a best guess.

God - if such exists - is treading a fine line between moralities. On one hand he Loves us all, and on the other he Loves us enough to give us Free Will. The highest, most impenetrable barrier to understanding this is mentality. What's the best way to learn Love, forgiveness, compassion.....??? People seem to be more keen to discuss the Universal Truth of Negative Karma than to 'learn the lessons'. Mankind needs to get its act together first, otherwise immortality would mean much more of the same old same old.


I think most of the time - pretty much all of the time - Spirituality completely misses the point, because it focusses on the theologies and the ideologies. Something 'bad' happens and it goes into overdrive about how it was negative karma from four Lifetimes ago that needed to be resolved, and the perpetrator will get theirs in the end. What happened to the human Spirit to endure? What happened to a more pragmatic Spirituality?

What do people find in faith and hope? Sometimes it's all that's left to hold onto when the rhymes and the reasons have exhausted themselves, when the mind can't conjure up any more logic or sense. In some cases it's blind but in others it's an 'ultimate' surrender to allowing what is to become. What some might term as heart-centred Spirituality.

So, here's your choice. Something 'bad' happens to you and you have two choices. One choice is that you do the Spiritual thing and call it bad karma, but that doesn't make you more Spiritual. What it does is keep you trapped in victim mentality that you have to live with for a long time yet. Choice two is that you suck it down like a marine and turn it all around, you use it as a 'platform' to grow from and your understanding and compassion helps others. You turn your hurts into halos. Whatcha gonna do?

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

Is there a way to switch the God gene back on?

Science is't that clever yet, thankfully.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

Cheers, I am from Bearsden, a small town near Glasgow. I think I picked on from the slang

Sometimes being Scottish can be a help or a hindrance, but I think it has more to do with what's in your head. Most people in here refuse point blank to talk about anything other than theologies and ideologies.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

I watched the movie What Dreams May Come, it was very emotional.

Oh good because that's quite revealing, emotions are an energetic reaction sometimes.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

So, if I understood correctly, even if someone wishes not to exist after death, saying that it will be boring and wants eternal oblivion upon death, they will still exist right? Like even if they want to cease existing, they won't, right? That's good to hear.

So go back to the movie. His wife committed suicide and she was in her own self-made purgatory, she 'took with her' the consciousness that she deserved her purgatory so that's what she ended up with. It wasn't until he rescued her and she realised she was Loved and forgiven. The moral of that story is that 'heaven' is anything you want it to be. One of the reasons people want oblivion after death is because they think they don't have a Life, and eternity with no Life isn't something to look forwards to.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

I just want to rest assured that when we die, that's not the end as in oblivion and that we will meet our loved ones.

If there isn't Life after death then every medium on the planet is delusional - including me.


You're not looking for an answer though, you're looking for the question. The question is "What are the reasons you need that reassurance?"

[EdmundJohnstone]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're not looking for an answer though, you're looking for the question. The question is "What are the reasons you need that reassurance?"

My reason is that I am attached to my loved ones and can't image being without them, like parting forever.

I am in this life because I want to do what I enjoy doing and be close to my loved ones, spread love.

I also can't imagine my loved ones that are spiritual to be part of oblivion while they have faith.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

My reason is that I am attached to my loved ones and can't image being without them, like parting forever.

I am in this life because I want to do what I enjoy doing and be close to my loved ones, spread love.

I also can't imagine my loved ones that are spiritual to be part of oblivion while they have faith.

Now it all makes sense. Thank you.

There is no such thing as oblivion and there is no such animal as non-existence. I shot the last one a fortnight ago.

You are not without your Loved Ones and they are never far away from you. In this Life we have a 'job to do' and perceptually we are 'disconnected' from our Loved Ones for a reason. Sometimes they'll take a step back from being in our Lives because their presence would be a distraction, and they have their own things to do while they're in Spirit too. As far as our awareness goes they're a realm apart from us but as far as they're concerned they're right here right now. If there is something common that I can take from mediumship it's that our Loved Ones are always aware of us.

There is no such thing as parting forever but there is such a thing as listening to your heart. Your emotions are your communications.

[EdmundJohnstone]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Science doesn't come with dogma? A very strange claim. Scientists can be just as dogmatic as any religious fundamentalist, seeing the world from a very limited perspective and rejecting anything which does not fit their belief system.

Hmm, good argument indeed.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Indeed, new physics is required, but that would require that scientists look beyond their current model. What are these existing experiments, and how do they hope to detect "spirit particles" using their current methods?

Still, the same physicist stated that "The laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely understood" and “There’s no way within those laws to allow of the information stored in our brains to persist after we die.”

Concluding that "For life after death to be possible, Carroll argues the laws of physics would have to completely change."

What do you have to say about this?

[EdmundJohnstone]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Now it all makes sense. Thank you.

There is no such thing as oblivion and there is no such animal as non-existence. I shot the last one a fortnight ago.

You are not without your Loved Ones and they are never far away from you. In this Life we have a 'job to do' and perceptually we are 'disconnected' from our Loved Ones for a reason. Sometimes they'll take a step back from being in our Lives because their presence would be a distraction, and they have their own things to do while they're in Spirit too. As far as our awareness goes they're a realm apart from us but as far as they're concerned they're right here right now. If there is something common that I can take from mediumship it's that our Loved Ones are always aware of us.

There is no such thing as parting forever but there is such a thing as listening to your heart. Your emotions are your communications.

Thank you for your warm message, it is much appreciated.

I assume most people think that there is nothing after death since they can't recall anything before being born (like the year 999), relying just on the brain (saying that everything paranormal is imagination and fighting for survival brain due to lack of oxygen and cocktail of hormones and chemicals) and the "lack of proof/evidence" saying that beliefs are just beliefs and not true. They would say that the afterlife is like seeing from your elbow in this physical world which would translate as nothing since we won't even realise it.


I would like to know if possible

1)How will we see in the afterlife if we won't have eyes since we lost them in physical death? I guess is something that our minds cannot think of in this physical world, right?

2)Do we have souls family? Like the thing I can't understand is: How 2 lovers that had kids reunite in another life? Let's say my wife in my past life reincarnated in the same city as me in this life, but I decide to marry a girl outside my city, or outside the country, like there are endless possibilities. How do we get to stay attached to our soul families if we have them?

3)If a person was evil and harmed other people, he or she will be the judge, right? Eventually will they realize what they have done, like in a negative way?

Cheers

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

Thank you for your warm message, it is much appreciated.

I assume most people think that there is nothing after death since they can't recall anything before being born (like the year 999), and they rely just on the brain (saying that everything paranormal is imagination and fighting for survival brain due to lack of oxygen and cocktail of hormones and chemicals) and the "lack of evidence". They would say that the afterlife is like seeing from your elbow in this physical world which would translate as nothing since we won't even realise it.

You are very welcome.


If there was only one way to perceive the Universe there wouldn't be millions feeding into the collective consciousness.



I would like to know if possible

[quote=EdmundJohnstone1)How will we see in the afterlife if we won't have eyes since we lost them in physical death? I guess is something that our minds cannot think of in this physical world, right?

2)Do we have souls family? Like the thing I can't understand is: How 2 lovers that had kids reunite in another life? Let's say my wife in my past life reincarnated in the same city as me in this life, but I decide to marry a girl outside my city, or outside the country, like there are endless possibilities. How do we get to stay attached to our soul families if we have them?

3)If a person was evil and harmed other people, he or she will be the judge, right? Eventually will they realize what they have done, like in a negative way?

Cheers[/quote]With respect Edmund, sometimes your own answers are the only ones and your own understanding of these questions is what's really important. But just to help you along a little...


Yes, we have a Soul Family and often it/they have been with us over a number of Lifetimes - either past or those yet to come. If you know how to 'look' you can know who they are but you have to be able to resonate with them rather than use the mind to figure out who they are. The concept of endless possibilities is one thing but their coming into actual existence is very much limited. That has more to do with quantum theory than it does Spirituality.


You see, you are the answer looking for the question.

[7luminaries]

le

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there 7L

Sorry, we got a little disjointed there. I guess I'm OK with some things being random - Free Will and all that, but for the Life-changing, major traumas? I can't imagine how they'd be random, frankly it's a thought that I'm really not able to entertain. I know that my own abuse changed me and I'm damned sure that if it hadn't happened I wouldn't have been the nice guy I am today. Consequently I would have treated others differently and perhaps Mrs G could have been a mess still, and my daughters would never have been born. There's quite a long chain of cause and effect that essentially begins with that abuse. Sorry, but I can't entertain the thought that all of that was random.

Hello Greenslade, well as I've said, I think it's more about probabilities and choices (which often do come from our innate state of heart consciousness, and which in turn then also shape the state of that heart consciousness) than a pre-determined, set-in-stone script that we slavishly follow. Of course, I'm not saying that's exactly what you mean either. But just that IMO it's a combination of proscribed and random which is far heavier on the probability and choice, aside from key meetings and crossings. So we may just rather more agree to disagree on this one :)


I think much of the exact details are unplanned, but that as things unfold, and say the abuse surfaces from another or else the kindness surfaces etc., then you always have a choice about how you respond and whether you use the lemons to make lemonade. Likewise, those that give out abuse one day or one year do have choices about turning away from the abuse the next day or the next year. As to how it all knits together, some is planned and some is not...and some key things would still have happened regardless but others perhaps would have been different...and you'd have loved and learnt and so forth regardless, as you were then and not exactly as you are now.

I can't do much else but completely agree with all of that. We have the Free Will to choose our experiences and from there create our own realities, the difference between something to help us grow and a so-called negative experience. There was a wonderful phrase that I picked up on many years ago, it was the title of a book if I remember - "Turning Hurts Into Halos."

I like to keep things as simple as possible. We're all going to 'get there' and of all this 'there is no time' stuff is to be believed we are already there. I can't help but wonder if the barrier to really understanding this is our perception of time more than anything else. But anyway..... We are going to get there, it's the question of how we're going to get there that's the mystery - and that's where the 'randomness' comes in. It's also up to us.

Yes...that is a part of the mystery and IMO an awful lot of it is up to us, at every point along the way ;)



And IMO the more any of it has been likely pre-agreed (i.e., meeting up with family, close soul family, and key beloved friends and mentors during your life), then the more critical and extensive the impact of our conscious, awakened choice has on both our own soul and that of the other(s) involved. So, IMO, believing in the pre-agreement of misaligned behaviour is both a misapprehension and a needless infliction of harm or trauma on you or a soul close to you. And particularly if we justify our own words and deeds as ok because surely they deserve it and anyway had signed onto it.



Each of these pre-agreements can take something, even something which might have started out as harmful or misaligned in this (or any) lifetime, and we can turn away from that behaviour. Only as children do we often have no opportunity to get away or reframe things, but after that, we can choose a different way to interact or chart a different path, based on simple kindness and respect for yourself equally to others (not taking abuse), and others equally to yourself.



It all starts with each of us taking ownership for what we say and do, with reasonably expecting that from others, and with drawing boundaries or stepping away when others cannot relate to our humanity at this basic level. In the main, IMO, it is very much in our purview to address most anything that we put out there which we need to address.

I wouldn't say randomness doesn't happen, because there have been so many occasions where - looking back - events have seemed to have been a bit random yet there was so much 'divine intervention' that happened. I'd like to think that we're going to get there either because of or despite ourselves, and that we're going to achieve what we've set out to do anyway.

I think we do get a lot of assistance. I don't think we always achieve what we hope to do in some lifetimes. But I think that as soon as we begin to realise that we can take ownership and centre in authentic love, we have turned the corner. And in doing that, we have in fact accomplished a great deal ;)

I wondered what I might think if I was to find myself in heaven and Spirit said "OK Greeny-baby. You can do it all over again but this time you can choose to change things - anything you want. Whatcha gonna do?" I'd do it all again, just the way it was. I'd make the same agreements, forget I'd made the agreements and had everything just the same. I think this is the understanding and when my brain can't compute the randomness, what I can't compute is something that contradicts that understanding. I would do it all again, all of it, if it meant the same things happened again.

You see, what I really can't figure out is that with everything Spirit is cracked up to be - collective consciousness, Akashic Records, all of time happening right now.... how anything can be random, because wouldn't everything be known to have happened anyway?

I think that there is what to us seems like a paradox. We think that because the God perspective knows all that it means our individuated consciousness also knows all. Yet even the archangels are not omnipotent with regard to our future -- even though they are beyond time and place and have full access to what for us is past, present, and future.



Why is that? Because of free will. Our free will. So our choices now impact and create the future, which is why they too can never know the future that comes to be until it does. If they look forward, it's ultimately meaningless because it changes in every moment. It's not all set, and therefore every choice in every moment continues to matter.

It would strengthen the heart centre, because if we knew what was going to happen we'd do it all anyway. We'd go through those inner difficulties as humans because it's simply not possible as Spirit, and we'd do it because we Love ourselves and others.

We get to say, in our own realities but the real question isn't one of who is right or wrong, it's who is the honest Seeker? What matters, what is truth? Our experiences have no inherent meaning of their own - existence itself has no inherent meaning, that's up to us.

I agree that we will and have endured more than we can say for those souls we love more than we can say. And I do agree that it's we who co-create meaning with one another, our guides, and Source...by revealing it. By discovering who we are at centre.

When I pop my clogs I'll have all the answers I need, until then all I have is my own perception. Perhaps the karma will be resolved then, I don't know but I'd like it to be.

I know what you mean. As long as you've done all you could, there's no more you can do. What's not on you is not yours to do.

It's a long story that began in a time before time, prior to the Big Bang. I had a long history with an adversarial woman who I was essentially at war with for many years, she was the key figure in starting a war and I was one of the key figures in trying to stop it. One of the reasons Atlantis fell was because of the battle of good versus evil essentially. What the energy grids did was to help those that came here anchor into this third dimension at least for a time, so that they were able to do their tasks. I really don't pretend to understand all the physics of it but it allowed certain beings from the higher dimensions to resonate at third-dimensional frequencies. While it worked well it was a victim of its own success, and some higher beings lost their connections to their higher dimensional selves and became engrossed into this dimension more fully. The rest of the story is pretty much well known. Fr me it was a simple Life back then, I had my family and my job, and some good friends. I took the joy of the simple Life so there's not much to tell really.

Very interesting...I also recall that Atlantis was in its day not such a great place...oppressive and corrupt at the top.

The key to understanding is to understand what was happening to Mrs G immediately after our son died. She went completely off the rails and wasn't a nice person at all, and murder and torture were hear constant playthings. The Love we had for each other then was.... pretty overwhelming sometimes, and although the agreement was her only way to be with me because if she had carried on down her destructive Path there would have been no room for her in mine. She's never vocalised it but I think she took the option as a way of redemption as she saw it.

I've died violently or at least not in the most pleasant of circumstances a few times, but 'early' wasn't a word that I'd use there. I've been told that I'll die in my sleep and that'll be fine, because the only thing that was worrying me was not about dying but about how I would meet it. I guess I was given a glimpse of that both in when I was rushed to hospital and in the very short but very long moments before the car crash. Dying is a fact of Life and if there is any randomness to experiences I'd think that dying would be one of those in which we were given a choice. Dying is pretty Life-changing and I can't come to terms with the thought that it's something that - if we have any choice at all - we would leave to random chance.

LOL...absolutely disagree that we all have that level of control with regard to death in every lifetime. But I would also say that it seems as we move along from one life to the next, we may at some point have more say in when we exit. At this point, we've nearly all been around the block several times. I feel like in my last lifetime, my timing of death was more in my hands but that it certainly wasn't like that in prior lifetimes.



Things change and, moreover, everyone's path is different. If you've died violently, you may very well have had no control over it, as I see it. Not once you agreed to come back and have some key meetups and then things go south. But if you died another way, then sure, perhaps you had some choice in the timing and manner of death, etc.

In certain circumstances the consciousness can protect itself by 'disconnecting' from traumatic events, because that's happened to me a few times. I've been conscious of being somewhere other than in my body when scary things have been happening - and it wasn't the mind going into 'protection mode' neither. Perhaps if you are remembering those violent deaths I'd guess there's a reason for that, maybe there's an understanding there for you. I'm a believer in things happening for a reason. Spiritually we're a work in progress and I've gained some pretty amazing insights with the couple of times I've been handed the very real threat of my own mortality on a plate. However I come to an end - timely or untimely - I know I'm ready for it, that my time has come and I can choose to wipe the slate clean. I'll also go out knowing I've made a difference, and for me that's a fitting way to end the Journey in this plane of existence in readiness for what's to come in the next.

Making a difference sounds pretty good...as does living truly, with integrity and from centre...as does coming to know yourself more deeply, so that you can live more truly.



It all sounds good to me, so good on you for any and all the good you've done in your own way.

Expectaions and pre-conceptions just get in the way anyway, and really there's no way of knowing how you're going to experience something until you are experiencing it.

There's a Scottish toast I'd like to share with you, 7L, at least in sentiment.


"Here's tae us
What's like us?
Damned few and they're aw deid."

Thanks for the toast and back atcha GS!

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

le
Hello Greenslade, well as I've said, I think it's more about probabilities and choices (which often do come from our innate state of heart consciousness, and which in turn then also shape the state of that heart consciousness) than a pre-determined, set-in-stone script that we slavishly follow. Of course, I'm not saying that's exactly what you mean either. But just that IMO it's a combination of proscribed and random which is far heavier on the probability and choice, aside from key meetings and crossings. So we may just rather more agree to disagree on this one :)


I think much of the exact details are unplanned, but that as things unfold, and say the abuse surfaces from another or else the kindness surfaces etc., then you always have a choice about how you respond and whether you use the lemons to make lemonade. Likewise, those that give out abuse one day or one year do have choices about turning away from the abuse the next day or the next year. As to how it all knits together, some is planned and some is not...and some key things would still have happened regardless but others perhaps would have been different...and you'd have loved and learnt and so forth regardless, as you were then and not exactly as you are now.

Hey there 7L


But what if we're talking about quantum theory and not beliefs? Or not about time's linear arrow but all of time affecting all of time all of the time? And I've seen the conversations about whether there is or isn't time, and frankly they make a nonsense of themselves. What if we're not talking about pre-planned at all but a causality loop?


Here's what I know for sure, beyond anything else. I know for sure that if I could go back in time I would do the whole thing over again, just the way it was. There is nothing I would change given the full knowledge of what was going to happen. If Spirit is all it's cracked up to be and we have access to the Akashic Records, collective consciousness... yadda yadda then we had full knowledge that it was going to happen but we came here any way.



Matter is emergent of consciousness, and all of time affects all of time all of the time.



How do you define what a "key thing" is? I would have said that any seriously traumatic experience would be a "key thing" because those are almost always Life-changing in some way or another#, and honestly I can't understand how, if some things are planned and some are not, how a serious, traumatic and Life-changing experience is random. It means that so many things that have led us to become Spiritual is random, because often people (myself included) are looking for answers or healing.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes...that is a part of the mystery and IMO an awful lot of it is up to us, at every point along the way ;)

Exactly, and even if it's all pre-planned in every detail then the mystery is also in the reasons we would do it all anyway. Frankly I find this is the understanding of such discussions, our sense of personal ethics gets in the way or we choose not to believe. If it is all pre-planned then isn't that self-sacrifice?

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

And IMO the more any of it has been likely pre-agreed (i.e., meeting up with family, close soul family, and key beloved friends and mentors during your life), then the more critical and extensive the impact of our conscious, awakened choice has on both our own soul and that of the other(s) involved. So, IMO, believing in the pre-agreement of misaligned behaviour is both a misapprehension and a needless infliction of harm or trauma on you or a soul close to you. And particularly if we justify our own words and deeds as ok because surely they deserve it and anyway had signed onto it.

But what is misaligned behaviour? What is the best way to teach you forgiveness, empathy, sympathy....??? What is the best way to equip you with the tools you'll need to help someone out further down the road? That is the realisation and the understanding that I'm coming from. Because I had certain experiences I was able to help people out, and if I hadn't had those experiences then.... who knows? I was the right person in the right place at the right time for them, and the random chance of that and everything that came before all converging on that point is... pretty bonkers against.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Each of these pre-agreements can take something, even something which might have started out as harmful or misaligned in this (or any) lifetime, and we can turn away from that behaviour. Only as children do we often have no opportunity to get away or reframe things, but after that, we can choose a different way to interact or chart a different path, based on simple kindness and respect for yourself equally to others (not taking abuse), and others equally to yourself.

We can't change what isn't there to be changed, we can't grow when there is nothing to grow from. And nothing happens on it's own, nothing happens TO us but everything happens BECAUSE of us.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

It all starts with each of us taking ownership for what we say and do, with reasonably expecting that from others, and with drawing boundaries or stepping away when others cannot relate to our humanity at this basic level. In the main, IMO, it is very much in our purview to address most anything that we put out there which we need to address.

How far back does that ownership go? Expectations are misaligned with Spirituality because they are not in harmony with what IS, and regardless of what we might expect of someone it doesn't always happen that way.


I take ownership of what I say and do because for the most part everything comes from equanimity, but I am a work in progress but I take ownership of my 'mistakes'. My beliefs are the best of a bad job, frankly, because the information just isn't available in any real shape or form. Sometimes all we're talking in are the shadows of shadows.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think we do get a lot of assistance. I don't think we always achieve what we hope to do in some lifetimes. But I think that as soon as we begin to realise that we can take ownership and centre in authentic love, we have turned the corner. And in doing that, we have in fact accomplished a great deal ;)

I have absolutely no doubt that we get a lot of assistance, and I have been very grateful for it a few times.


I have forgiven those that have trespassed against me as best I can, given the circumstances. "Them up there" Love me and I Love them, deeply and genuinely. I've been told that this is my last trip on this plane of existence, so I can only guess that whatever I agreed to has either been achieved. I was given an exit point quite a few years ago but chose to stay, I made a promise to a little girl whom I've never met. But I made that choice consciously, and while I was making it the only thing that was on my mind was that it was something I had to do. Afterwards I realised I;d signed up for 'more of the same' but I had no regrets, I knew it wasn't going to be easy from past experience. I did it anyway.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think that there is what to us seems like a paradox. We think that because the God perspective knows all that it means our individuated consciousness also knows all. Yet even the archangels are not omnipotent with regard to our future -- even though they are beyond time and place and have full access to what for us is past, present, and future.

Why is that? Because of free will. Our free will. So our choices now impact and create the future, which is why they too can never know the future that comes to be until it does. If they look forward, it's ultimately meaningless because it changes in every moment. It's not all set, and therefore every choice in every moment continues to matter.

I was a working medium for a time and one of the FAQs was always around what the future had in store for that person. There was always a sense of not giving the person information that could change the future, because telling them that such-and-such was going to happen would invariably change their experience of that future... And those were the key words - "change their experience."


Can it not be our Free Will as Spirit to have our human existence pre-planned if thar's compatible with both our own and the 'wider' development? If it's not then doesn't that diminish what's been projected to/at Spirit?

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I agree that we will and have endured more than we can say for those souls we love more than we can say. And I do agree that it's we who co-create meaning with one another, our guides, and Source...by revealing it. By discovering who we are at centre.

However it is perceived it remains a Journey to Self, being poetic.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I know what you mean. As long as you've done all you could, there's no more you can do. What's not on you is not yours to do.

There is all of eternity to play with

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Very interesting...I also recall that Atlantis was in its day not such a great place...oppressive and corrupt at the top.

Atlantis had its good points as well as its bad, and I've reconnected with so many Souls that were there at the time so that's been a lovely reunion for the most part. It seems that the energies that brought Atlantis down are still very much at large, and that makes me wonder.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

LOL...absolutely disagree that we all have that level of control with regard to death in every lifetime. But I would also say that it seems as we move along from one life to the next, we may at some point have more say in when we exit. At this point, we've nearly all been around the block several times. I feel like in my last lifetime, my timing of death was more in my hands but that it certainly wasn't like that in prior lifetimes.

Things change and, moreover, everyone's path is different. If you've died violently, you may very well have had no control over it, as I see it. Not once you agreed to come back and have some key meetups and then things go south. But if you died another way, then sure, perhaps you had some choice in the timing and manner of death, etc.

So we have no Free Will in how we die? Dying physically itself is inevitable and it seems we have no Free Will as far as that's concerned. If we have no control then who does? Who makes that choice of what level of control we have? Now you're going into the realms of a Biblical God.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Making a difference sounds pretty good...as does living truly, with integrity and from centre...as does coming to know yourself more deeply, so that you can live more truly.

It all sounds good to me, so good on you for any and all the good you've done in your own way.

Regardless of which one of us is right or wrong I've gained so much from this little tête-a-tete of ours. What I do know is that this train of thoughts/beliefs have brought me to certain realisations that I wouldn't have had from being a passenger on your train. No doubt you have the very same sentiments.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Thanks for the toast and back atcha GS!

Peace & blessings
7L

Namaste 7L, and I'll be waiting in the Forests of the West.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there 7L


But what if we're talking about quantum theory and not beliefs? Or not about time's linear arrow but all of time affecting all of time all of the time? And I've seen the conversations about whether there is or isn't time, and frankly they make a nonsense of themselves. What if we're not talking about pre-planned at all but a causality loop?


Here's what I know for sure, beyond anything else. I know for sure that if I could go back in time I would do the whole thing over again, just the way it was. There is nothing I would change given the full knowledge of what was going to happen. If Spirit is all it's cracked up to be and we have access to the Akashic Records, collective consciousness... yadda yadda then we had full knowledge that it was going to happen but we came here any way.

Hey there GS, yes I understand your position and many have put it forward. But IMO it doesn't ring fully true simply because, in my illuminations, it is the change that we incur or experience or CREATE that yields cumulative change in the greater whole. Or, what we might call that which informs What Is of What Is more truly. If not for us doing our own little thing with all the in-between freely chosen (if not always with deeper awareness, LOL) then What Is [not this] would be something different to What Is [this]. If not for our creation, our choice, our decisions taken, then things would still BE but they would BE differently to now. You might say, well then how would you know? That's the thing, hahaha...I just do. LOL...But seriously, for certain, the future is changing all the time.

And so the only reason Source knows "the future" is because as soon as we take decisions, then of course that moment was always decided as such and can be viewed outside of time "prior to" that moment.

Unless we make a different choice and then it was always that other way.

That's why it all flows from the heart centre and right alignment. Everything else is shifting sands and intellectual semantics ;)

Matter is emergent of consciousness, and all of time affects all of time all of the time.

How do you define what a "key thing" is? I would have said that any seriously traumatic experience would be a "key thing" because those are almost always Life-changing in some way or another#, and honestly I can't understand how, if some things are planned and some are not, how a serious, traumatic and Life-changing experience is random. It means that so many things that have led us to become Spiritual is random, because often people (myself included) are looking for answers or healing.

The answer (to why and to healing) both does and does not lie within us. That is, it lies within us but not solely within us. There is interrelationship and context at every level -- regarding both the why's and healing.

Not all that affects us is within our control, of course. What is within our control is our internal alignment with our centre, and thus our intent, thought, word, and deed...or, how we act or react, as some put it.

Exactly, and even if it's all pre-planned in every detail then the mystery is also in the reasons we would do it all anyway. Frankly I find this is the understanding of such discussions, our sense of personal ethics gets in the way or we choose not to believe. If it is all pre-planned then isn't that self-sacrifice?

Actually, you are, at core, nothing more than your own unique slice of apprehension, illumination, and you expression of right alignment. At core, you are your intention and your choice and those things do align with morality and ethics. There is ultimately no separation. IMO folks get way too caught up in all the divisions and separations. You are only who you are, no matter when and where. Granted, your level of experience and wisdom will eventually change across lifetimes, and that's as it should be.

But what is misaligned behaviour? What is the best way to teach you forgiveness, empathy, sympathy....??? What is the best way to equip you with the tools you'll need to help someone out further down the road? That is the realisation and the understanding that I'm coming from. Because I had certain experiences I was able to help people out, and if I hadn't had those experiences then.... who knows? I was the right person in the right place at the right time for them, and the random chance of that and everything that came before all converging on that point is... pretty bonkers against.

We can't change what isn't there to be changed, we can't grow when there is nothing to grow from. And nothing happens on it's own, nothing happens TO us but everything happens BECAUSE of us.

The universe will help us all figure it out, luckily, given an infinite amount of time, as needed...that's the beauty of it...so what you don't get in this lifetime, don't despair.

However, I completely agree with you that what you can do for another and particularly for those close to you...just do it. Live in the now and be generous with kindness and (though it can be hard) acceptance.

I had a moving moment re: what has gone before, including in this lifetime. What was conveyed to me very directly was that sometimes some folks do change. On their own time and when least expected. And nothing that has gone before makes sense any more from the perspective of who they are now...which presumably is a somewhat more radiant being So, what cannot always be logically sorted can instead be accepted and affirmed. Which is more powerful, ultimately? It has to be the latter...because we simply cannot sort it all intellectually but yet the heart can easily expand to apprehend. Or with some practice anyway.

How far back does that ownership go? Expectations are misaligned with Spirituality because they are not in harmony with what IS, and regardless of what we might expect of someone it doesn't always happen that way.


I take ownership of what I say and do because for the most part everything comes from equanimity, but I am a work in progress but I take ownership of my 'mistakes'. My beliefs are the best of a bad job, frankly, because the information just isn't available in any real shape or form. Sometimes all we're talking in are the shadows of shadows.

How far back? It's a seemingly paradoxical combo of "all the way back" and "I just got here yesterday so this last bit can only be fully owned by me as of today". Go figure, LOL... Yet both/and it is. Easier to accept at heart than by mind.

I have absolutely no doubt that we get a lot of assistance, and I have been very grateful for it a few times.

I have forgiven those that have trespassed against me as best I can, given the circumstances. "Them up there" Love me and I Love them, deeply and genuinely. I've been told that this is my last trip on this plane of existence, so I can only guess that whatever I agreed to has either been achieved. I was given an exit point quite a few years ago but chose to stay, I made a promise to a little girl whom I've never met. But I made that choice consciously, and while I was making it the only thing that was on my mind was that it was something I had to do. Afterwards I realised I;d signed up for 'more of the same' but I had no regrets, I knew it wasn't going to be easy from past experience. I did it anyway.

Good on you...do what you can and serve where you're able. It's all we can do. More comes clear over time but at the same time, it won't make sense to most without some illumination and resonance, without a much deeper awareness. And that's ok too.

I was a working medium for a time and one of the FAQs was always around what the future had in store for that person. There was always a sense of not giving the person information that could change the future, because telling them that such-and-such was going to happen would invariably change their experience of that future... And those were the key words - "change their experience."

Can it not be our Free Will as Spirit to have our human existence pre-planned if thar's compatible with both our own and the 'wider' development? If it's not then doesn't that diminish what's been projected to/at Spirit?

Things may change and perhaps there are some impacts. Sometimes you gotta do it again...and again...hahaha. But the choices you make in each moment are what matter. What matters is where your heart and soul are and how they are oriented to the souls in your life. And as you grow, you certainly may take different choices...not in any one lifetime -- I would never touch any of What Is on some stupid whim or even due to any honest, heartfelt regret or remorse, etc. I agree all that has happened is What Is to this point. Thus. instead, you carry it all forward...so that instead, I seek to take ownership, make amends, and live more truly from centre now and in all future now moments. Including the next life (or what have ye).

However it is perceived it remains a Journey to Self, being poetic.

There is all of eternity to play with

Atlantis had its good points as well as its bad, and I've reconnected with so many Souls that were there at the time so that's been a lovely reunion for the most part. It seems that the energies that brought Atlantis down are still very much at large, and that makes me wonder.

So we have no Free Will in how we die? Dying physically itself is inevitable and it seems we have no Free Will as far as that's concerned. If we have no control then who does? Who makes that choice of what level of control we have? Now you're going into the realms of a Biblical God.

Regardless of which one of us is right or wrong I've gained so much from this little tête-a-tete of ours. What I do know is that this train of thoughts/beliefs have brought me to certain realisations that I wouldn't have had from being a passenger on your train. No doubt you have the very same sentiments.

Namaste 7L, and I'll be waiting in the Forests of the West.

It's been a pleasure here as well. And I do have some of the same sentiments -- for one, I do know everyone's journey is different, for all it's interwoven. So who's to say. For two, who knows and the truth is no doubt far beyond more of this or less of that :) And for three, another of my dearly loved close soul fam member has received and shared an illumination of some kind, which I can feel as a general sense of love, wellbeing, and healing...and as we all know, that moves the collective as a whole forward. And I do think that it was brought forward in considering the why? and then some healing insight, as a result of what you and I were discussing. All for one and one for all, in that sense.

Peace & blessings
7L