Are (some) crimininals karma collectors?

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

As in the theory meets real Life?

No, as in I wrote something but a real life matter came up and I didn't want to re-write it - particularly as our discussion here is more intellectual than pragmatic - it's not so important or urgent IMO.

BT

[peteyzen]

Karma is an intention stimulated boomerang. One of the universal laws related to consciousness of humans. What we intend as we act creates an equal and opposite reaction which returns to us at some point in the future, that could be in this or future lives. Every intention creates karma, we have to be careful what we think.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'm not even gonna touch that one


According to the Britannica karma began in Sanskrit as simply 'action', then it was redefined as 'cause and effect' and then the ethical component was added. 'Kamma' is supposed to be moral causation equivalent of karma - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/...thi/kamma.html
I dare say there's a lot of cross-pollination of concepts, redefining (as Spirituality seems to have a penchant for) and the like across various religions, so it's not hard to see how 'karma' and 'kamma' have been blended.

Intention is also supposed to have an effect on karma, although I can't understand how having good intentions (which the road to hell is paved with) has to do with fixing someone's leg if I'm the cause of breaking it, or they hate me with great gusto.

I'm going to stay with the original Sanskrit with this one too -
""'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'..."

That's what those 'high vibrations' is all about, and your Universe is a reflection of you. If you think you're on the karmic wheel, you're on the karmic wheel.

Kamma is intention and intending one acts through body/speech/mind (per above)

And as per above, yes beings are heir to their kamma.

Kamma-vipaka are the results of kamma. (per above)

I know what you mean that intention is tricky, but that is because ego-self is ultimately tricky. That means someone who is still ego-self bound can believe that they are doing something for someone else's benefit, when they are merely acting for their own selfish means or for the benefit of their (ego) self-image. Or they help another but only to achieve something in return.

Yet even this scenario is too simplified. Whether it is neighbors helping each other, caregivers giving genuine care, lovers helping friends, a bus companion, helping an old lady cross a street, saving a stray cat, a smile to someone down, donating to someone who needs it, a father loving his son, a daughter loving her Aunt - all without a second thought - these are the many acts of kindness that happen every day in this world, and are real beams of Light every day.

Still, intention is important.

Act I

Barry donates his time and money to a charity to help a small child.
June donates time and money to a charity to help a small child.

Background:

-Barry plans to run for councillor next year and is doing this to raise his profile and obtain good press coverage.
-June feels deeply for this child and wishes to give what she can

Act II

Jack wants to help a friend that recently broke his leg and is unable to work for a while.
Jill wants to help a friend that recently broke his leg and is unable to work for a while.

Background:

- Jack has saved some money and shares some of it with his friend in the hope that this will help ease things in this time of need
- Jill offers the friend a temporary position in her cafe, she likes to be the nice person as this is what her self-image is reliant on, and she helps by offering this and making sure he knows what he owes her. She also tells all her friends how much she is doing and what a good person she is.

Act III

A person walks down the street and seeing a child fall over and cry, rushes to her aid
A sage walks down the street and seeing a child fall over and cry, rushes to her aid

There are numerous permutations, I would guess, but yes intention matters in my opinion.

Remember the Buddha teaches that the full effects of kamma (kamma-vipaka) is a complex interplay and only known by one with the full range of Buddha powers (siddhis). (yet yes, people are heir to their own kamma - no contradiction )

A final point - for a realized Buddha the concept of ego-self is broken down, and they are at complete peace within themselves - they may not act as one would typically expect, nor are they driven by self-image, pride or ego (this is where the road to hell comment actually comes in, in that no matter how much we think of ourselves, when ego-self is still there, things can still get muddy. Most people who say things like "I'm a really kind person" are probably not the kindest .. yet). Much of society's help is ego-driven but also so much of individual's help is kindness bound so what does it matter?

i.e. this is all very intellectual talk so it can be thrown away as soon as it is read. :P Personally, I both defer to the Buddha's wisdom and also say thank you very much to all the kind people in this world who help others and help self in the light of love and compassion.

YMMV.

BT

[Nature Grows]

Recently my car was stolen it was found completely destroyed, when I was a teenager me an my friend, ugh... borrowed someone's car without permission and smashed it.. karma?

How does karma work exactly? I'm not sure 100% but iv had a few things similar to what I said above happen, sometimes karma can come back at you stronger too it seems, two examples... once when I was younger I got into a fight with someone and ended up stomping on them a few times, that weekend I got invited to a party, I felt like I shouldn't go, I hated parties, but I went anyway, when I got there the person I had the fight with was there with all his friends maybe twenty people, all these people chased me out of the party, down the street where one of them caught up to me then the rest, they all stomped on me. Another example I was walking in the city, some homeless guy asked me for money, I thought how ever much money I have in my pocket I'll just give to this guy, so I looked and it was a 50 dollar note which I was gonna use for food, I gave it to him regardless.. my father later on in the day won $6000 and shared it with me.

Karma, does it really work like debt though? You done this for me so I owe you this, really, like that? Even from past lives? Despite what I have said above the whole debt and owing thing is kinda unnatural, it seems nature gives freely, a bear eats berries off a tree it doesn't owe the tree anything, the bear then walks on and poos out the seeds giving birth to new plants.. you know, debt just seems a bit unnatural, it's like the bank system or something some human concept there must be more to it. like If you see all as one then it's like urself interacting with yourself for example.

It makes more sense to me that you get off the wheel of karma as it's called when you stop judging your experiences as good or bad, that makes more sense then debt and owing things like a bank or something and it's like you pay it off, but like I've said I have had my experiences with things that turned out that way so things come back around in ways sometimes... Anyway I'm ranting on a bit, yea...

Also I just will add another bit, I've heard... If we are to look at karma from a owing debt kinda way, that some souls will before incarnating chose how fast they will pay things off, this is if we are looking at it from this perspective... So they say something like yea I'll do this an that an this an pay for it in a few life times down the track or straight away in the same life time... that's what iv heard some people talk about it like........

treat others how you would like to be treated... When your nice to people they are normally nice back.

But I know this was more about things coming back that u put out...So yaaaaa

I took something a while ago that didn't belong to anyone including me.

I sold it for exactly $120

Two days later I lost my wallet.
Half way through the day I let go of worrying about it and 20 min later someone called my job. A friend I haven't spoke to in 5 yrs picked it up.

When it was handed to me later that day only $20 was in it.
Leaving exactly $120 missing.

Karma

[Ghost_Rider_1970]

I think this video helps explain karma beautifully :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCgIRf6fbgw

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

I took something a while ago that didn't belong to anyone including me.

I sold it for exactly $120

Two days later I lost my wallet.
Half way through the day I let go of worrying about it and 20 min later someone called my job. A friend I haven't spoke to in 5 yrs picked it up.

When it was handed to me later that day only $20 was in it.
Leaving exactly $120 missing.

Karma

Thats funny Badcopyinc.

Originally Posted by Ghost_Rider_1970

I think this video helps explain karma beautifully :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCgIRf6fbgw

Nice video Ghost, thanks for sharing i like Allan watts.

Originally Posted by lemex

Totally This is very instructive and imo technically right on. Yet even agreeing I guess I see differently. I wasn't going to comment except for the most beautiful and powerful thing said that I experienced that helped me see, it is about this belief of good. I am I think a good person to and believe one (can) sees one always has been (good), it was always there inside. To me this is, be in the Now. Let such things as ethics take care of itself. Love this clarification. I do believe our nature is good. I think this one thing is actually real.

Always the divine spark makes itself known, even sometimes in the deepest of darknesses.

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Another misconception Greenslade It's not questioning the Buddha, it's putting the teachings into practice to "know for yourself". The Kalama Sutra is for a group of non-believers, the Buddhist advice is for Buddhists. While Buddha never requested belief or obedience, you will find that Buddhists generally respect and follow the teachings of Buddha, especially once they have put his teachings into practice and have faith in the teachings (not through belief, but through having tested it for themselves). Kamma is intention, and with intention, speech/thought/body acts.

Playing catch-up and missed one, my apologies. I'll go for the spirit of the saying, that blind faith isn't always the best way forwards.

Like every other concept it's changed over the ages and interpretations but I'm glad of your clarifications. I'm not an acolyte by any means and sometimes it's nice to be put straight by those that are, especially if it makes sense and aids understanding.

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Well we just shared with you how it is in Buddhism and I'm afraid it's not the revenge or punishment mentality as you could see.

BT

It was never my portrayal of the word and what was being portrayed by seemingly well-versed Spiritual people was making less and less sense. What I was reading from them was a mentality, nothing more.

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Kamma is intention and intending one acts through body/speech/mind (per above)

And as per above, yes beings are heir to their kamma.

Kamma-vipaka are the results of kamma. (per above)

I know what you mean that intention is tricky, but that is because ego-self is ultimately tricky. That means someone who is still ego-self bound can believe that they are doing something for someone else's benefit, when they are merely acting for their own selfish means or for the benefit of their (ego) self-image. Or they help another but only to achieve something in return.

Yet even this scenario is too simplified. Whether it is neighbors helping each other, caregivers giving genuine care, lovers helping friends, a bus companion, helping an old lady cross a street, saving a stray cat, a smile to someone down, donating to someone who needs it, a father loving his son, a daughter loving her Aunt - all without a second thought - these are the many acts of kindness that happen every day in this world, and are real beams of Light every day.

Still, intention is important.

Act I

Barry donates his time and money to a charity to help a small child.
June donates time and money to a charity to help a small child.

Background:

-Barry plans to run for councillor next year and is doing this to raise his profile and obtain good press coverage.
-June feels deeply for this child and wishes to give what she can

Act II

Jack wants to help a friend that recently broke his leg and is unable to work for a while.
Jill wants to help a friend that recently broke his leg and is unable to work for a while.

Background:

- Jack has saved some money and shares some of it with his friend in the hope that this will help ease things in this time of need
- Jill offers the friend a temporary position in her cafe, she likes to be the nice person as this is what her self-image is reliant on, and she helps by offering this and making sure he knows what he owes her. She also tells all her friends how much she is doing and what a good person she is.

Act III

A person walks down the street and seeing a child fall over and cry, rushes to her aid
A sage walks down the street and seeing a child fall over and cry, rushes to her aid

There are numerous permutations, I would guess, but yes intention matters in my opinion.

Remember the Buddha teaches that the full effects of kamma (kamma-vipaka) is a complex interplay and only known by one with the full range of Buddha powers (siddhis). (yet yes, people are heir to their own kamma - no contradiction )

A final point - for a realized Buddha the concept of ego-self is broken down, and they are at complete peace within themselves - they may not act as one would typically expect, nor are they driven by self-image, pride or ego (this is where the road to hell comment actually comes in, in that no matter how much we think of ourselves, when ego-self is still there, things can still get muddy. Most people who say things like "I'm a really kind person" are probably not the kindest .. yet). Much of society's help is ego-driven but also so much of individual's help is kindness bound so what does it matter?

i.e. this is all very intellectual talk so it can be thrown away as soon as it is read. :P Personally, I both defer to the Buddha's wisdom and also say thank you very much to all the kind people in this world who help others and help self in the light of love and compassion.

YMMV.

BT

I'm going to say a huge thank you for taking the time on this, I really do appreciate it. To be honest it's been annoying me for while, it was one of those concepts that didn't make sense and the more I looked into it the more confusing it become. Reading what others had written about it on the forums was only making it more confusing. It wasn't until kamma reared its head that things started falling into place, and thanks to this post it's all nicely nailed down now.

I have what might be called an anti-ego, I don't do things for ego nor image but because that's the kind of person I am. What's hard for me is to acknowledge how much I affect people and often in ways I'd never expect, and even having a fist-full of awards and two bottles of a rather fine single malt Scotch to 'prove it' doesn't seem real somehow.

Yes it was a bit intellectual but not throw-away, because it's nice to resonate with something on a deep level.

Thank you again.