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  #11  
Old 20-07-2016, 06:43 PM
IAmNemo IAmNemo is offline
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organic born,
Haha, hydrogen fuel... Another of the cheap gimmicks that optimists and social dissidents often adhere to.
(Don't take any offense to that, I'm both an optimist and a social dissident myself.)

There are numerous problems with using hydrogen as a fuel source that most people who are hopeful of the technology often have no ideas about. Explosions aren't even at the top of this list.

For example, the fact that using more of our clean water supply and literally burning through it on a global scale? Does that sound like a good idea to you? Do you think clean water is an easily renewable resource?

Second, what is required for creating hydrogen fuel? That's right, electricity.
Traditional energy sources must be used just to acquire this fuel. Therefore we are still dependent on things like coal and oil until we produce enough solar, wind, or nuclear power to fulfill all energy needs around the world. A goal we are not anywhere near at this moment.

Not to mention that producing clean water from ocean water, to renew what we are using as fuel, also requires massive amounts of energy.

Then there is size and weight to consider. Hydrogen isn't exactly the best fuel source unless you store it as compressed liquid, in which case it becomes extremely volatile and uncontrollably explosive. I don't think some fancy new tanks are going to prevent everyone from exploding an entire neighborhood block from some freak accidents that statistically occur pretty much every single day with traditional gas engines.
And what is required to compress it even if explosions can be controlled? Yep, you guessed it. More energy.

So inevitably this fuel source is costing us in energy even more than our current energy needs! How is that an 'advancement' in technology?
I absolutely hope we never see the day when hydrogen fuel becomes common. If this day were to ever come then I hope you're all on the energy company's 'good' list. Because they would be humanity's new overlords.

The only way that hydrogen fuel would ever be viable is if humanity's technologies are supremely more advanced. That all regular energy needs are covered and there is actually an over abundance of energy being produced. Then, and only then, if those requirements are met we also have technology to entirely eliminate the threat of catastrophic failure resulting in mass explosions. Including intentional use as a weapon.
And let's not forget the safety of the production facility workers as well as general refilling stations. We need those places absolutely secured, too.
Furthermore, if those requirement are met, it would only be largely beneficial if another more viable fuel source has not yet been found.
Only then could hydrogen fuel be useful and not connect productive.

So we're looking at maybe 100 years or so from now? Just my guess.

P.S. Many of the statistics regarding hydrogen production are also skewed. Several of these statistics are derived from the very energy companies who themselves would profit the most from using hydrogen as a fuel source. If you're reading about hydrogen fuel, as with anything, be careful with statistics and pay clear attention to whom funded them and did the research for them, as well as how they did that research. There are many dubious sources and large corporations are not above skewing results to make more money.

I guarantee you all that if you look into nuclear energy technologies you will find that ultimately they are the best technology for us right now. Minimal ecological footprint with huge energy payouts. And modern nuclear reactors are extremely safe and have numerous preventive safeguards against melt down that make it near impossible. Much safer than letting literally anyone drive around with jet fuel strapped to their car.
Even solar and wind energy do not compare. They have relatively large ecological footprints on the land. They take up massive amounts of what is often arable land and turn it into nothing but energy farming. Not to mention the maintenance and resources needed to build them.
Nuclear energy isn't a fuel source for transportation, of course. But I believe if we focus our efforts on solving the traditional concerns for energy then we will have more resources to then focus on finding a viable fuel source or figuring out new methods of energy delivery, which in my opinion is the only real alternative to 'fossil fuels'.
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  #12  
Old 20-07-2016, 07:40 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmNemo

For example, the fact that using more of our clean water supply and literally burning through it on a global scale? Does that sound like a good idea to you? Do you think clean water is an easily renewable resource?

Second, what is required for creating hydrogen fuel? That's right, electricity.
Traditional energy sources must be used just to acquire this fuel.

A solar panel and about the amount of water needed to flush a toilet. I've already made this stuff myself and it's surprisingly easy.

While nuclear is clearly a dead end. One power plant goes under and it pollutes the world. Fukushima anyone? Not to mention the storage of the waste products that come with it's use.

And are you growing your own food or are you sitting in an apartment somewhere watching the world pass you by while you continue to add to the problem? Don't take offense, I'm just curious? :)
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  #13  
Old 20-07-2016, 10:11 PM
Tanemon Tanemon is offline
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Originally Posted by organic born
What you are doing, essentially, everyone, should be doing as well, at some level. We waste fuel and time on stuff of no value. We've only had electricity for about a hundred years, only gas powered engines for about as long. For 2 million years we've been without such mechanisms, and only the last 10,000 years have we been growing our own food, with none of that, until now, happening through modern means. ...

We have become a lazy culture with little to no connection with our natural origins and basically live, eat, and breath for the sake of superficial entertainment.

We need to dial it back a bit! There are folks converting their back yards into food generating machines, providing as much as 80% of their personal food needs (the way most people did it some hundred years ago). The food enters their kitchens in their whole versions and are processed in place by the individuals doing the consuming. ...

I'm learning to do what you're already familiar with. I have several acres that I'm converting into a food making machine, with nutrient density and clean growing methods as the theme. This has been requiring me to learn how nature actually works and I can see this as a multi year process in terms of the seasonal timing patterns. ...

You... are the example that we need to be following! :)
I appreciate the compliment. I do not expect all households to live the way I do, but I have some involvement with teaching people how to do what I do, for those who are inclined.

That in itself is a separate topic. But I do wish more people would flesh out their personal profiles here on SF. Aside from pursuing fantasies and dreams, or practical activities, virtually all SFers are interested in spiritual & metaphysical topics, so a lot of members don't specify that, either, in their profiles - but we can obviously safely assume it.

My point: we are not just spirits caught in meat bodies - the bodies involve personhood. And we are not all TV/video watchers or gamesters who fantasize only, nor mindless consumers. (And please don't think I diss TV, video, gaming, or spending money - only that I know for certain there is more to life than those things.) It would be good to know what other people do with their time, you have shared, O.B. (getting into food raising, solar energy, etc).
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  #14  
Old 21-07-2016, 06:32 PM
IAmNemo IAmNemo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
A solar panel and about the amount of water needed to flush a toilet. I've already made this stuff myself and it's surprisingly easy.

While nuclear is clearly a dead end. One power plant goes under and it pollutes the world. Fukushima anyone? Not to mention the storage of the waste products that come with it's use.

And are you growing your own food or are you sitting in an apartment somewhere watching the world pass you by while you continue to add to the problem? Don't take offense, I'm just curious? :)
So everyone gets a solar panel then? And who is going to pay for all of that? And where are those resources coming from?

Like I just explained, your hydrogen fuel still needs traditional energy sources (as you confirmed yourself) which still means we have the traditional energy concerns until we solve that problem. And adding more energy needs to this problem is definitely not what we want right now. So why are you promoting it? Because you can do it on a farm? Know what else you can do on a farm or in your backyard? Create bio diesel using only recycled resources. Many farmers already do this, too. And it's essentially more efficient and safer than your hydrogen, too.

And what is this nonsense about nuclear power being a "dead end". Have you even bothered to do any research on this? As I also already explained, nuclear power is the cleanest, safest, and most efficient source of power currently available. It produces no pollution unlike coal and oil, and it has a smaller ecological footprint on our arable lands than solar and wind power (in other words it takes up much less livable space). It also produces the highest kilowatts per hour of any energy source.

And all modern nuclear plants are also extremely safe. The Japanese reactor you mention was outdated and not regularly maintenance properly. In fact, the investigation commission found out that they were intentionally not doing safety precautions and the company later admitted to this. And that is the price people pay for such things sometimes. As well, they had time to mitigate the disaster, unlike the earliest technologies which resulted in Chernobyl before these modern safeguards existed. Modern nuclear technologies if regularly maintenanced properly pretty much make meltdown impossible. And I've said all of this already.

As for me, I'm going to point out that everyone in any modern society adds to the problem, whether they wish to or not. If you believe you aren't doing so yourself then you are therefore part of the biggest problem we have. Hopefully you recognize this. And in such I assume you'll also understand why your question for me is not only irrelevant but also detracting from your own beliefs.

Further, understand that not everyone can afford solar panels and even if they could would we even want them to? Do you know the cost in resources that go into making solar panels? Do you understand the ecological footprint of constructing and placing them? And not only that, but the maintenance required to keep them functioning and replacing them as needed? And that they only work I daylight and at night you have to either use very massive batteries, fuel, or the traditional grid? Or maybe you prefer that your refrigerated food go bad every night? I don't know.

Now don't think that I hate solar technology. I think it is awesome and I wish more people would use it for their homes if they can. But the technology is obviously not prefect and there are fundamental problems with it, as mentioned, that don't allow it to be a permanent or reliable solution in every case. We must understand that.

And you know what else? You seem concerned about nuclear meltdown of power plants, but what is going to stop every terrorist in the world from using hydrogen fueled cars, which are essentially cars containing jet fuel, and using them as weapons against pretty much anyone and everyone? And you know what? Forget the car, they don't even need that. Just a container for the fuel will do.
Society currently makes it hard to get access to even getting a seat on an airplane for this very reason. Because liquid hydrogen is EXTREMELY dangerous. You think they are going to suddenly put up stations all over the world which give out jet fuel to pretty much anyone with a dollar? Even if society had no problems doing this, do you personally think that this is the best idea?

And again, the water needed is an issue with that. Maybe it seems to you like water is never going to run out anywhere at anytime, but there are even people in the world today without clean drinking water. Areas of the world where good water is hard to come by. And for the rest of us, our water supply is not going to last forever. Why does it seem like no one is ever concerned about this?

And tell me, do you think I REALLY need expensive solar panels on my home and to be growing all of my own food in space that not everyone even has, just to be on the same level as you? Perhaps you really don't mean any offense by this but the implications are obvious. You are implying that you are better than most people because you grow some food and make hydrogen or whatever it is you do. I hope you understand that even if you cannot offend me personally, you might have inadvertently offended many others with such an instigation.

By the way,
Those people living in their apartments you're being all snide about? They utilize very minimal living space and land for themselves and likely also have less energy needs than someone living in their own home.
Did you even consider that at all? Do you think there is even enough space on Earth for everyone to have their own homes and own farms and for us to still have things like parks, public buildings, work places, grocery stores, factories, and etc.? Oh and roads are a big one, too. What would be the point of hydrogen cars without any roads to travel on? That's not even counting all the wood and stone it would take to build all the houses. So if you believed that then perhaps you should look it up, because I think the facts would surprise you.

So no, I don't live in an apartment and I try to grow what I can when I can with the space I can. Even if it never turns out very well. But I think we should both be rather thankful of those people living in their apartments. They are really doing people like us a favor. I appreciate them.

Anyway, all I want people to do is truly educate themselves before forming conclusions. And I'm not suggesting you aren't trying to do this, but I do think that perhaps you've fallen victim to common misconceptions about these things. Things I run into all the time. And I would just hope that the information I provide at least calls these things into question so that you might recheck your facts and question any assumptions you've made. This is all that I ever hope for. If nothing else then at least such inquiries are good for further solidifying one's current beliefs and gathering more evidence to support them, right?
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  #15  
Old 21-07-2016, 08:14 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Originally Posted by IAmNemo

Anyway, all I want people to do is truly educate themselves before forming conclusions. And I'm not suggesting you aren't trying to do this, but I do think that perhaps you've fallen victim to common misconceptions about these things. Things I run into all the time. And I would just hope that the information I provide at least calls these things into question so that you might recheck your facts and question any assumptions you've made. This is all that I ever hope for. If nothing else then at least such inquiries are good for further solidifying one's current beliefs and gathering more evidence to support them, right?
The meltdown in Fukushima was caused by a "Tidal Wave" not by poor maintenance. All you have to do is loose "one" in order to generate a major ecological catastrophe. That's a lot of intense risk being concentrated in one place. Every time you build one of these you are projecting the possibility of a similar risk.

And seriously, a single solar panel will break the bank? And the storage systems I've seen being studied involves canisters filled with carbon fiber with an inert version of hydrogen being stored until it's it's freed and then used in a controlled process. You can plow into the tanks with a truck and nothing happens. It's much easier to use propane if you're up to something that's destructive in intent.

And frankly, someones not thinking clearly if they spend their lives renting apartments. You never pay those things off. A small home with property is the wiser way to go. I have land with no dept, cars that are payed off, all this accomplished over time and now I'm freed to pursue wiser choices without the weight of empty dept or repetitive rent. Why should I be happy for folks who have permanently placed themselves into an endless cycle of work in order to endlessly pay other people for such a small cubical to live in? Warehousing people wouldn't be my first choice for the general well-being of others.

And growing one's own food is taking responsibility for one's own place on this planet. It doesn't sound like you value such but I find it wonderfully rewarding. Not only is the food grown in my own backyard but I know how it was raised and I can focus on improving quality. And family and friends are benefiting as well. Yes indeed I use resources but I'm on a glide-path toward reversing such dependency. Little to no waste is generated by my household. We don't use disposable boxes and bags and our bottles are reused repetitively for on-property use.

If this all makes me seem like I'm "better" than others then I guess there's no reason to improve one's experience with living? Happily I'm not contained by such thinking. :)
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  #16  
Old 21-07-2016, 11:24 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Originally Posted by Tanemon
My point: we are not just spirits caught in meat bodies - the bodies involve personhood. And we are not all TV/video watchers or gamesters who fantasize only, nor mindless consumers. (And please don't think I diss TV, video, gaming, or spending money - only that I know for certain there is more to life than those things.) It would be good to know what other people do with their time, you have shared, O.B. (getting into food raising, solar energy, etc).
It's become apparent over time that it's all spiritual, every bit of everything has a spiritual presence simply by the fact that it exists at all. We currently live on a physically defined plane, being channeled through bodies that rely on senses as an interface with this "version" of reality. We had to "learn" to become human from infancy onward, and are now perceptually contained within a sting of definitions composed of conditioned acceptances.

The acceptances we were trained into are mostly culturally-accumulated. But there's another rhythm of perceiving that runs tandem to this experience that has been around, in a steady way, since the beginning of physical time. We can call it "nature" but it's really a vast stream of cooperative interactions that springs forth freely among the components of energetic possibility and expression. When we view nature "culturally" we are viewing such rhythms as though from the "outside", while if we participate in the manor in which nature interacts with itself we are traveling along the steam of spontaneous creation. A person who grows plants, in an empathetic way, is moving along with the stream in a mutually beneficial way. As we give, so are we given.

Humans evolved as an outdoor species. We were not designed to be hold-up inside of buildings. We were designed to move among nature and to participate with-in the natural process. I love working the soil, watching the plants work themselves out of the ground, admire the leaves as they form and open to take-in the suns blessing, and watch as they build into a dream of their own making. Each year the song is customized and yet consistent, the voices are that of creation unfolding, they rise and they fall and then arise with the cycles.

We tend to dismiss what we're daily immersed in as ordinary and not really that interesting. And yet the magic is there hiding right-out in the open. As we release our attachment to the cultural-redirecting we find the spirituality of the most amazing ready to embrace our well-being.

The church that I attend I happily water and nurture with each day. :)
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  #17  
Old 23-07-2016, 04:32 PM
Tanemon Tanemon is offline
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Originally Posted by organic born
It appears that free energy may have been around for a long time. Not to mention a form of travel that dwarfs anything that we've been seeing so far. I started watching the documentary as a skeptic and came away feeling differently. A.R.V. stands for Alien Reproduction Vehicle.

A.R.V and the Mark McCandlish history the free energy Fluxliner UFO Space Craft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMOaSWUI-gI
I did attempt to watch that vid - but when I clicked into the URL I got the Youtube system's message saying the vid had been taken down due to a number of complaints of copyright infringement.
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  #18  
Old 23-07-2016, 06:25 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Originally Posted by Tanemon
I did attempt to watch that vid - but when I clicked into the URL I got the Youtube system's message saying the vid had been taken down due to a number of complaints of copyright infringement.
Here's a link to the UFO channel's version of the film, it's still up and running so they're likely the owners:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t67876ch95M


Here's another link to a video by a guy who made a simple version of the hydrogen -made from water- converter. This process is disturbingly easy, creating a gas that's amazingly combustible. Who'd-a thought that water could explode! :)

HHO Generator - Water to Fuel Converter (aka Explosive Gas by Electrolysis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqjn3mup1So
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  #19  
Old 23-07-2016, 08:06 PM
Tanemon Tanemon is offline
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Originally Posted by organic born
Here's a link to the UFO channel's version of the film, it's still up and running so they're likely the owners:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t67876ch95M
I'll have a gander at that video. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Here's another link to a video by a guy who made a simple version of the hydrogen -made from water- converter. This process is disturbingly easy, creating a gas that's amazingly combustible. Who'd-a thought that water could explode! :)

HHO Generator - Water to Fuel Converter (aka Explosive Gas by Electrolysis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqjn3mup1So
I do a fair bit of welding, most of it with electric-arc equipment, but some with oxygen-acetylene torch equipment. Hydrogen can be used as a gas-flame torch fuel, because under pressure and mixed in a torch with pure oxygen, it's flame can burn at slightly over 5000* fahrenheit - but most people use acetylene, because it burns another 1000* hotter.

When I was about 11, I made a little electrolysis set-up at home - not nearly as fancy as the guy in the video made.

Anyhow, for separating the oxygen and hydrogen from water, I've heard there are biologically-based methods for separating the oxygen and hydrogen from water, which require much less electrical-energy input.
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  #20  
Old 23-07-2016, 08:51 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Originally Posted by Tanemon
Anyhow, for separating the oxygen and hydrogen from water, I've heard there are biologically-based methods for separating the oxygen and hydrogen from water, which require much less electrical-energy input.
There appears to be three differing methods under development at the moment with water conversion in mind. I found a cool site that explores this and several other methods of alternative energy generation.

Here's the link to the water conversion page, and from there you can look-into the other interesting approaches toward energy generation.
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-from-water

As to the electricity involved using the Electrolysis, there isn't really very much, considering. In the video he was using two car batteries in tandem and was getting about 5 liters a minute via this method. There's no telling how long this could continue on two batteries. It could amount to quite a bit of product. If we recharge those batteries with a single solar panel, and have perhaps two other batteries on the side already charged then the amount of product from this simple little system could turn out to be quite impressive. A simple outlay and then free gas from then-on. :)
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