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  #41  
Old 28-03-2017, 04:03 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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You will notice the Dzogchen view does not say there are no truths.. Just that there's is higher :)
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  #42  
Old 28-03-2017, 05:18 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Here is an example of Ultimate Emptiness.

Quote:
Primordial emptiness is like a bubbling sea of nothingness, brimming with potential. It can be most easily described in the realization of three components, but each of the component is inseparable. These components are Void, motion (or energy) and potential.


The void is empty with no activity at all. Nothing to perceive and nothing to sense. Like a totally dead sea with no motion. The nature of void can be found going deeper and deeper into meditation. The is a common goal in many traditions. But, it is beyond senses, lights or astral visions. All activity in mind (or universal mind) is dropped such that nothing is left. All perception is gone, such that the mind is still and for all practical purposes, one and everything "ceases".


When the nothingness of void "moves" or changes state, one has "energy". Energy has no true substance as it is only the motion of void, but it gives rise to something to be "perceived". In it's emergence, energy can be guided by "intent". First energy is noticed on a subconscious level, but with greater realization, it can be guided and affected. First in one's body, and later as greater mental obstructions are cleared on a universal level.


When one has fully realized the void and one experiences energy 24/7 in a conscious (controlled) manner, one integrates the two and can notice the "potential". The potential is the pristine clarity (or light) of the void. Or in more modern terms, it is the structure or raw building stuff of mind/universal mind. All that exists or potentially can exist is a transmission of this pristine clarity/light.


When one fully realizes these three components as integrated and inseparable, they have realized ultimate emptiness. One "sees behind" the curtain (of mind) and becomes stabilized in the primordial sea.



Ultimately, void is nothingness, energy is the motion of nothingness, clarity (or light) is the realization of the potential of it all that can be guided by intent.
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  #43  
Old 28-03-2017, 05:37 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
We are not talking prasangika madhyamaka are we?
I am talking from a prasangika madhyamaka perspective when commenting on the applicability of the label 'truth' and in the context of direct perception of emptiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Also, being introduced is not the same thing as a permanent realization... Which you are missing..
From a dzogchen perspective it isn't possible to miss awareness.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
You can't perceive emptiness except as an intellectual understanding...
In the context of applying prasangika madhyamaka I can. See I can say 'I am tasting sweet sugar.' But saying this is not the experience of sweetness. understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Don't you see how that gives you away?
Just consult Tsongkhapa, he uses the expression 'direct perception of emptiness' all the time. Of course in prasangika madhyamaka there is no difference between 'perception' and 'imputation' but I thought that goes without saying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Also, it is a lack of understanding of the true nature to think one needs an object to perceive emptiness... again if you are perceiving a thing it is not emptiness.. I should also ask what is the true nature of those objects that you perceive as being needed to perceive emptiness?
Emptiness in prasangika madhyamaka is the absence of inherent existence. Where is it absent from? From all objects/phenomena including oneself.
So there is an appearance and what seems to appear is actually absent. The appearance is emptiness because it is empty of what seems to appear.
That is quite straightfoward and consistent.

Maybe you are not familiar with Tsongkhapa's supreme presentation. It actually takes some time to graps how to linguistically express the philosophy consistently.
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  #44  
Old 28-03-2017, 05:50 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
I am talking from a prasangika madhyamaka perspective when commenting on the applicability of the label 'truth' and in the context of direct perception of emptiness.

It doesn't seem like you are.

Prāsaṅgika is a subschool of Madhyamaka, which asserts that all concrete and mental phenomena, although existing conventionally, are empty of any type of inherent identity or self-characterizing essence.


Quote:
From a dzogchen perspective it isn't possible to miss awareness.

It is possible to not realize Buddha Nature after the introduction... Which is exactly what I said you have not realized... A big difference


Quote:
In the context of applying prasangika madhyamaka I can. See I can say 'I am tasting sweet sugar.' But saying this is not the experience of sweetness. understand?

That experience is not emptiness... you still don't get that..

Quote:
Just consult Tsongkhapa, he uses the expression 'direct perception of emptiness' all the time. Of course in prasangika madhyamaka there is no difference between 'perception' and 'imputation' but I thought that goes without saying.

Please share some examples.


Quote:
Emptiness in prasangika madhyamaka is the absence of inherent existence. Where is it absent from? From all objects/phenomena including oneself.
So there is an appearance and what seems to appear is actually absent. The appearance is emptiness because it is empty of what seems to appear.
That is quite straightfoward and consistent.

That is the conventional view.. emptiness is not something perceived, nor something viewed because of the absence of appearances

You are stuck on the conventional, intellectual understanding and trying to apply that to a realization you haven't experienced.. which is why you keep saying things which are not correct.

Quote:
Maybe you are not familiar with Tsongkhapa's supreme presentation. It actually takes some time to graps how to linguistically express the philosophy consistently.

Or you could post some relevant points to help with the understanding.
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  #45  
Old 28-03-2017, 06:21 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
It doesn't seem like you are.

Prāsaṅgika is a subschool of Madhyamaka, which asserts that all concrete and mental phenomena, although existing conventionally, are empty of any type of inherent identity or self-characterizing essence.
No contradiction. 'existing convetionally" means existing only through imputation. And 'empty of any type of inherent identity or self-characterizing essence' means 'empty of inherent existence'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
It is possible to not realize Buddha Nature after the introduction... Which is exactly what I said you have not realized... A big difference
Putting 'Buddha Nature' aside, awareness cannot be realized. Why? Because it is no object.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
That experience is not emptiness... you still don't get that..
I am applying consistent linguistic expressions. How can you say 'that experience is or is not' when seeing my empty words? you just see concatenations of signs with no inherent meaning. It is your consciousness that synthesizes the meaning.
All you can do is to check whether I am applying words consistently.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Please share some examples.
Too much effort, sorry.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
That is the conventional view.. emptiness is not something perceived, nor something viewed because of the absence of appearances
That's nonsens. Don't you see the screen of your tablet, laptop or the like? Don't you see the words that you are reading? And you claim that appearances of phenomena are absent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
You are stuck on the conventional, intellectual understanding and trying to apply that to a realization you haven't experienced.. which is why you keep saying things which are not correct.
Currently I am applying language consistently and I am applying language that refers to philosophical analysis and its conclusions to which correspond experiences.
When I am writing in the context of dzogchen I am also applying words consistently but then I am applying a language that uses similes, metaphors to refer to awareness but neither to philosophical analysis nor to experiences.

So there are just different types of language depending on context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Or you could post some relevant points to help with the understanding.
Too much effort, sorry.
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  #46  
Old 28-03-2017, 06:53 PM
sky sky is offline
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[quote=jonesboy]Here is an example of Ultimate Emptiness.[/QUOTE

But this is just Jeff's example, others might see it differently.
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  #47  
Old 28-03-2017, 07:47 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
No contradiction. 'existing convetionally" means existing only through imputation. And 'empty of any type of inherent identity or self-characterizing essence' means 'empty of inherent existence'.

Like a fire, but one does not experience that emptiness


Quote:
Putting 'Buddha Nature' aside, awareness cannot be realized. Why? Because it is no object.

That is not the topic now is it

Quote:
I am applying consistent linguistic expressions. How can you say 'that experience is or is not' when seeing my empty words? you just see concatenations of signs with no inherent meaning. It is your consciousness that synthesizes the meaning.
All you can do is to check whether I am applying words consistently.

People ca also smell ** also


Quote:
Too much effort, sorry.

To much effort to quote what you are saying? Interesting.


Quote:
That's nonsens. Don't you see the screen of your tablet, laptop or the like? Don't you see the words that you are reading? And you claim that appearances of phenomena are absent?


That is an intellectual understanding.. You have not realized the oneness of that tablet and perceived the empty nature of said object.


Quote:
Currently I am applying language consistently and I am applying language that refers to philosophical analysis and its conclusions to which correspond experiences.
When I am writing in the context of dzogchen I am also applying words consistently but then I am applying a language that uses similes, metaphors to refer to awareness but neither to philosophical analysis nor to experiences.

That is conventional.. it is all thinking.. not being of which emptiness is beyond.
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  #48  
Old 28-03-2017, 07:49 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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[quote=sky123]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Here is an example of Ultimate Emptiness.[/QUOTE

But this is just Jeff's example, others might see it differently.

Kashmir Shiavism mentions it pretty much the same way.

Here is an example, now I can provide more to help with the understanding of the various terms if you wish?

Quote:
From the book The Triadic Heart of Siva.


The Heart of Siva

The Heart, says Abhinavagupta, is the very Self of Siva, of Bhairava,

and of the Devi, the Goddess who is inseparable from Siva. Indeed,

the Heart is the site of their union (yamala), of their embrace (samghatta).

This abode is pure consciousness (caitanya) as well as unlimited bliss

(ananda). As consciousness the Heart is the unbounded, infinite light

(prakasa) as well as the freedom (svatantrya) and spontaneity (vimarsa)

of that light to appear in a multitude and variety of forms. The Heart,

says Abhinavagupta, is the sacred fire-pit of Bhairava.1

The Heart is the Ultimate (anuttara) which is both utterly transcendent

to (visvottirna) and yet totally immanent in (visvamaya) all created things.

It is the ultimate essence (sara). Thus, the Heart embodies the paradoxical

nature of Siva and is therefore a place of astonishment (camatkara), sheer

wonder (vismaya), and ineffable mystery. The Heart is the fullness and

unboundedness of Siva (purnatva), the plenum of being that overflows

continuously into manifestation. At the same time, it is also an inconceivable

emptiness (sunyatisunya).2 The Heart is the unbounded and

universal Self (purnahanta).

The Heart of Siva is not a static or inert absolute, however. In fact,

the non-dual Kashmir Shaiva tradition considers it to be in a state of

perpetual movement, a state of vibration (spanda)3 in which it is continuously

contracting and expanding (samkoca-vikasa), opening and closing

(unmesa-nimesa), trembling (ullasita), quivering (sphurita), throbbing,

waving, and sparkling (ucchalata). The intensity and speed of this move

ment is such that paradoxically it is simultaneously a perfect dynamic

stillness.4

The tradition states that the Heart is the enormous ocean (ambunidhi),

the ocean of light, the ocean of consciousness. The waters of consciousness

that in man are broken by countless polarizing and divisive waves (urmi)

may be easily brought to a state of dynamic stillness by the process of

immersion or absorption (samdvesa) in the Heart.
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  #49  
Old 28-03-2017, 07:59 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Talking about the motion of light or spanda in KS:

Quote:
In the same text he gives a clear definition of spanda:
The nature of such a consciousness is its capacity for self-referral, and because
of that, there always arises a spontaneous sound (dhvani) which is termed
the supreme, the great Heart. That self-consciousness in the Heart in which
the entire universe without remainder is dissolved, present at the beginning
and at the end of perception of objects, is called in the authoritative texts the
vibration (spanda), and more precisely, the universal vibration (samanyaspanda),
and its nature is an overflowing in the Self. For that vibration, which
is a slight motion of a special kind, a unique vibrating light, is the wave of
the ocean of consciousness, without which there is no consciousness at all.
For the character of the ocean is that it is sometimes filled with waves and
sometimes waveless. This consciousness is the essence of all. The insentientuniverse has consciousness as its essence, because its very foundation is dependent on that, and its essence is the great Heart.2

To help explain the above...

Quote:
Another descriptive term, uccalana, rendered as "an overflowing,"
conveys the sense of a continuous dynamism within the absolute reality,
a perpetual movement toward itself. This internal dynamism serves as
the source for the external movement that results in the process of manifestation.
The term dhvani, rendered as "sound," conveys the internal
resonance, the primordial hum that is set up by this movement within
the Ultimate reality. Udyoga, an activating inciting exertion, shows the
internal power of the absolute reality, a power silently amassing for a
ferocious unleashing, a power tremblingly experienced by the yogin who
enters into the majesty of Bhairava.3

The silence of the Supreme is shot through with a creative tension,
a primordial urge, an impelling force. This force is the sakti, the power
of the Ultimate, which sets up an agitation (ghurnana), even a disturbance
(ksobha), which is responsible for the wave motion within the absolute.
Thus, the absolute is continually arising into waves which create the slight
and imperceptible movement or vibration that characterizes consciousness,
and which allows consciousness to be the foundation and essence of all
manifest reality.

It is important to emphasize that this movement occurs within the
fundamental core of the Ultimate: it forms the essential feature of Ultimate
reality according to the non-dual Kashmir Shaiva tradition. It can in no
way jeopardize the status of the Ultimate as absolute. To wish to define
the Ultimate reality as a silence that transcends all characterizations
would be to distort and demote the absolute into a powerless and useless
ultimate. Such an ultimate would be totally appeased (Santa), but would
also be incapable of serving as the essence of the finite. The spanda, the
internal movement of the Heart of Siva, rescues the absolute from a kind
of pristine but static inertia.
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  #50  
Old 28-03-2017, 08:08 PM
sky sky is offline
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[quote=jonesboy]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123

Kashmir Shiavism mentions it pretty much the same way.

Here is an example, now I can provide more to help with the understanding of the various terms if you wish?


This is a Buddhist section...
No thanks I can get the various terms as you do... via Google or even better, my own experiences.
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