Vedanta and the Temple

[Gem]

In my curiosity I have read that Vedanta means the end of the Vedas, or the goal the Vedas supposedly lead to. I chose this topic because Advaita is but one school of Vedanta, so perhaps the topic of Vedanta will provide a 'bigger picture' within which Advaita is. Even then, according to the very reliable Wikipedia (rolly eyes) Vedanta itself is but one of six orthodox schools of Hindu philosophy.

There's nothing I can 'really know' as I have never been to any Hindu temples or schools, and all I could say is what I read on Google - though that does seem to qualify 'the experts' on Buddhist philosophy.

I hope someone who knows about this stuff might happen along so a reasonable discussion can be had, along with some citations to the Vedas - as it seems Vedanta as the 'end' means the conclusions or the goals of the Vedas.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Gem

In my curiosity I have read that Vedanta means the end of the Vedas, or the goal the Vedas supposedly lead to. I chose this topic because Advaita is but one school of Vedanta, so perhaps the topic of Vedanta will provide a 'bigger picture' within which Advaita is. Even then, according to the very reliable Wikipedia (rolly eyes) Vedanta itself is but one of six orthodox schools of Hindu philosophy.

There's nothing I can 'really know' as I have never been to any Hindu temples or schools, and all I could say is what I read on Google - though that does seem to qualify 'the experts' on Buddhist philosophy.

I hope someone who knows about this stuff might happen along so a reasonable discussion can be had, along with some citations to the Vedas - as it seems Vedanta as the 'end' means the conclusions or the goals of the Vedas.

Dear Gem.

It seems that I had somehow anticipated this post by an hour or so, as I just got through typing up an actual summation on this very topic, according to the Svetasvatara Upanishad and the Rig Veda.

It can be found here:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=118919

It is full of Vedic citations about this very thing! (as per your request).

Advaita Vedanta means the end of Vedic wisdom through the practical application of Non-Duality.

However and that being said, to conceptualise or try to rationalise Brahman or an absolute Non-Dual state of awareness is nigh to near impossible...we cannot merely think of something either/neither/both 'there' or 'not there' according to it's own 'existence' or 'nonexistence' no matter which way our brain tries to slice the Non-Dual cake.

To realise Brahman..or our 'Buddha Nature' or 'the Void' or whatever fits, requires mindfulness and unwavering focus on an objectified awareness in the dual sense of that relationship, until the whole relationship is transcended through the conceptual/perceptual notion of 'subject/object' or 'self/self' or anything that is only a manifestation (Prakriti/Shatki) of that indeterminate nature of substratum or impetus (Purusha/Brahman).

In regards to this Dualistic relationship within the Non-Dual causality, the term is called Vishistavdaita Vedanta or Qualified Monism/monistic thought with regard to the end of the Vedic wisdom. Just as salt may dissolve in water to become 'salty water'...evaporation of that water will reveal the salt once more and condensation will reveal the water once more.

I shall go into the Samkhya philosophy and others a bit later, because I'm tired and my brain is philosophy-fried right now...but when I'm able to think clearly again, I shall respond with 'part 2'....watch this space.

*who needs wikia when you have a walking Vedic encyclopedia right here on SF?* lol

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Dear Gem.

It seems that I had somehow anticipated this post by an hour or so, as I just got through typing up an actual summation on this very topic, according to the Svetasvatara Upanishad and the Rig Veda.

It can be found here:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=118919

It is full of Vedic citations about this very thing! (as per your request).

Advaita Vedanta means the end of Vedic wisdom through the practical application of Non-Duality.

Yes I read that Advaita is the 'non-dual' part of Vedanta, but apparently there are more aspects of Vedanta than just Advaita.

However and that being said, to conceptualise or try to rationalise Brahman or an absolute Non-Dual state of awareness is nigh to near impossible...we cannot merely think of something either/neither/both 'there' or 'not there' according to it's own 'existence' or 'nonexistence' no matter which way our brain tries to slice the Non-Dual cake.

Indeed.

To realise Brahman..or our 'Buddha Nature' or 'the Void' or whatever fits, requires mindfulness and unwavering focus on an objectified awareness in the dual sense of that relationship, until the whole relationship is transcended through the conceptual/perceptual notion of 'subject/object' or 'self/self' or anything that is only a manifestation (Prakriti/Shatki) of that indeterminate nature of substratum or impetus (Purusha/Brahman).

In regards to this Dualistic relationship within the Non-Dual causality, the term is called Vishistavdaita Vedanta or Qualified Monism/monistic thought with regard to the end of the Vedic wisdom. Just as salt may dissolve in water to become 'salty water'...evaporation of that water will reveal the salt once more and condensation will reveal the water once more.

I shall go into the Samkhya philosophy and others a bit later, because I'm tired and my brain is philosophy-fried right now...but when I'm able to think clearly again, I shall respond with 'part 2'....watch this space.

*who needs wikia when you have a walking Vedic encyclopedia right here on SF?* lol

I'll go have have a look at the link you posted and see wassup wit dat.

[no1wakesup]

"Just as salt may dissolve in water to become 'salty water'...evaporation of that water will reveal the salt once more and condensation will reveal the water once more"

Beautiful.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes I read that Advaita is the 'non-dual' part of Vedanta, but apparently there are more aspects of Vedanta than just Advaita.

Exactly...and I shall get to all that in due course. I have already completed one...five more to go. lol

See, my friend...when the mind cannot conceptualise a nebulous and mentally unattainable notion like Brahman Absolute in the true Advaitic terms OF the Vedanta which states "That thou ART" and "Brahman Alone Exists"...it tries to understand...it tries to become that, which it already is...and so, the subject/object predication and predilection begins in earnest.

The mind does backflips and somersaults trying to 'know' and to 'understand' this thing called Non-Duality...until finally, it goes "AHA!...if I concentrate/meditate for long enough, I will become one with it - I will merge/join with it and unify my essence with the whole essence of Brahman"...still trying to 'become' that, of course. Thus, Qualified Monism is born.

Out of Qualified Monism (Vishistadvaita) we get the concept of Bheda-Abheda..which means "the difference of indifference" and from there, comes the whole concept of YOGA - which means to "yoke" or "unify" one's consciousness with the Supreme Brahman through that discipline which is called Tapas and/or through total surrender TO a conceptual permutation of the Absolute, which is called Ishwara (God/Brahman/Source) Pranidhana (surrender of ego-self TO it)...and from there, the whole Vedanta period ENDS and the Puranic period BEGINS and one path somehow becomes six.

Which leads on to the whole Samkhya Philosophy which I shall expound tomorrow.

Also with all due ego aside...it's time I let this all out of me and showed others what I actually know, have learned, have experienced for myself...and maybe they will understand it...stop taking me for granted just a tad and understand my Hindu roots...where I come from when I say all the stuff I do on here.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Exactly...and I shall get to all that in due course. I have already completed one...five more to go. lol

See, my friend...when the mind cannot conceptualise a nebulous and mentally unattainable notion like Brahman Absolute in the true Advaitic terms OF the Vedanta which states "That thou ART" and "Brahman Alone Exists"...it tries to understand...it tries to become that, which it already is...and so, the subject/object predication and predilection begins.

Yes, that makes some sense.

The mind does backflips and somersaults trying to 'know' and to 'understand' this thing called Non-Duality...until finally, it goes "AHA!...if I concentrate/meditate for long enough, I will become one with it - I will merge/join with it and unify my essence with the whole essence of Brahman"...still trying to 'become' that, of course. Thus, Qualified Monism is born.

I did notice when sitting with others that the 'becoming' was quite a strong attachment, as it pertains directly to the self that becomes...

Out of Qualified Monism (Vishistadvaita) we get the concept of Bedha-Abheda..which is "the difference of indifference" and from there, comes the whole concept of YOGA - which means to "yoke" or "unify" one's consciousness with the Supreme Brahman through that discipline which is called Tapas and/or through total surrender TO a conceptual permutation of the absolute, which is called Ishwara (God/Brahman/Source) Pranidhana (surrender of self-ego TO it)...and from there, the whole Vedanta period ENDS and the Puranic period BEGINS and one then path somehow becomes six.

Which leads on to the whole Samkhya Philosophy which I shall expound tomorrow.

kewl

Also with all due ego aside...it's time I let this all out of me and showed others what I actually know, have learned, have experienced for myself...and maybe they will understand it...stop taking me for granted just a tad and understand my Hindu roots...where I come from when I say all the stuff I do on here.

Ok, that sounds great, but take it slow, don't get in a rush, because I never heard of Vedanta ways before, and I won't be able to keep up.

[Shivani Devi]

No problem, Gem...I shall take my time and allow it to sink in and digest a bit first. I understand it's a lot to take in all at once.

In retrospect, I see that I have also covered the school of YOGA and explained how this came about through the individual need to unify with Brahman beyond the mental concept.

Yoga is the orthodoxy I personally follow and it's perhaps the main one.

So, two down, four to go. lol

If you have understood it up to this point, I shall summarise.

The Vedas are all about the nature of Brahman/Consciousness from a purely intellectual perspective.

However, the mind cannot grasp Brahman from a purely intellectual perspective...even though it sorta understands what it is, but understanding isn't enough to become aware of it.

So then they say..."well the Vedas have taught us all that, but what's the use of just knowing it? I'm still no different within myself after having known...so let's say, "this is the point at which the Vedas ENDS...when I can actually think/understand NO MORE...and it all goes beyond words now" this is Vedanta! This is what it really means!

So, the mind/consciousness/soul seeks to unify/join/yoke with that awareness through various means called yoga.

How this does so, depends on the nature and character of the individual mind and thus many different types of yoga arise:

Hatha Yoga (Physical)
Jnana Yoga/Raja Yoga (Mental)
Bhakti Yoga (Heart/Devotion) - yeah, that's the way I do it.
Karma Yoga (Action, helping/serving others)
Mantra Yoga (Chanting) - I do that too.

There are many, many more...and these paths of yoga can also be combined...one can practice one, two...as many as they like.

Also each Major school of Yoga has subschools within itself.

For example, Hatha Yoga also comprises Kriya Yoga (purification rituals), Kundalini Yoga/Laya Yoga (awakening and arising the inner cosmic power) etc

I could go on, but I don't want to confuse you...beyond that which you probably are already. lol

I'll leave it for a few days then until what I have said groks with you, before I go onto the next four.

[Shivani Devi]

Oh heck...it wants to immediately express now and I can't stop it.

Sankya/Samkya Philosophy

I've already covered two schools of Orthodox Hinduism, that of Yoga and of Vedanta itself...but that was the easy part.

Before I go any further now, we need to look at a concept called Pramana, which are the 'right ways' or 'laws' which govern the experiential realisation of the Absolute:

Pratyakasha (direct perception), Upamana (comparative analogy), Arthapatti (effect arising from cause), anupalabdhi (non-perception and negation) and Shabda (words, teachings and grace from the Guru).

I have mentioned the terms "Prakriti" and "Purusha" before..."Prakriti" is also called Maya (illusion) or that which is not Brahman - which basically includes everything we can directly perceive as being diametrically opposed to Brahman, existing as "Purusha".

In Samkya philosophy, Brahman is given the term "Ishwara" or "God" or "Personal Deity" to represent the formless which is also called "Purusha", i.e....that which is not Prakriti in and of Itself, yet gives rise to it and also exists AS it!

Through Shakti (Prakriti), Shiva (Purusha) can be known, so it's a juxtaposition and a balancing act either way it goes.

Many of these schools also overlap, like Bhakti Yogis believe in One Reality (God of their choice) and everything else is only an emanation or effulgence of it - His/Her "Divine Energies as represented by Maya/Shakti" but that's only a part of the Reality, not the absolute reality in and of Itself.

They call this one, the SAGUNA aspect of Brahman which is the FORM of Brahman (Prakriti AND Purusha) as opposed to the NIRGUNA aspect of Brahman (formless Purusha only) which also includes the Saguna aspect, but it isn't that in totality.

It's like when we pray to a statue/murthy...we're not praying to a lump of die-cast metal or clay....when we pray to the Shiva Lingam, we're not praying to a rock, but what it only represents! - the formless, all pervading energy behind it, that actually gives rise TO the existence of it...and yet, it's also of itself, the very essence of that existence.

This is the philosophy of Sankya.

....and we are half-way there.

[Gem]

When I was on the ND threads in this section I saw the argument was petty, so I became curious about the bigger picture in which such argument was a small fractional part. Now I wonder if the bigger picture of Vedanta is merely a collage of petty parts, because the imaginary personal Gods being construed as the Brahman seems completely ludicrous to me. Chanting also seems mindnumbingly inane, but the other 4 aspects of yoga are probably meritorious in dealing with the body, mind, devotion and action. I fear though, the deeper discourse on these will quickly start to sound like a fairy tale.

I went to sit with different Buddhist sectarian groups, and was surprised when they instructed deity meditations, like visualise a rinpoche and all the lights coming out if him. My meditation process involved throwing out anything unnecessary, which is anything I have to produce intentionally, so although I appreciate the colourful ideas, it is counterproductive to my mediditative process. I can gel with the four aspects of yoga (apart from mantra), as the physical aspect is beneficial, the mental aspect could deal with distraction and reaction, the devotion aspect could deal with purposeful diligence (but not in dedication to an icon), and the karma aspect encourage a kinder disposition (but not in terms of punishment or reward). Those 4 are interrelated so they fit quite well.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Gem

When I was on the ND threads in this section I saw the argument was petty, so I became curious about the bigger picture in which such argument was a small fractional part. Now I wonder if the bigger picture of Vedanta is merely a collage of petty parts, because the imaginary personal Gods being construed as the Brahman seems completely ludicrous to me. Chanting also seems mindnumbingly inane, but the other 4 aspects of yoga are probably meritorious in dealing with the body, mind, devotion and action. I fear though, the deeper discourse on these will quickly start to sound like a fairy tale.

I went to sit with different Buddhist sectarian groups, and was surprised when they instructed deity meditations, like visualise a rinpoche and all the lights coming out if him. My meditation process involved throwing out anything unnecessary, which is anything I have to produce intentionally, so although I appreciate the colourful ideas, it is counterproductive to my mediditative process. I can gel with the four aspects of yoga (apart from mantra), as the physical aspect is beneficial, the mental aspect could deal with distraction and reaction, the devotion aspect could deal with purposeful diligence (but not in dedication to an icon), and the karma aspect encourage a kinder disposition (but not in terms of punishment or reward). Those 4 are interrelated so they fit quite well.

It is all about intent, focus and being in that space according to persuasion and temperament.

For some, the mind needs just one concept as opposed to many as a form of 'God mindfulness' and yes, you can realise Brahman by loving and focusing on a chair or a pile of manure or a particular Deity that resonates with what you feel in the heart space...it is an acknowledgment of the essence within and without, comprising, yet transcending as the existential awareness within itself and realised through the medium of love's own expression.

However, I'm giving this thread a break for a while, my brain is totally numb after doing this...and also the recent contributions I made in the Hindu forum on that thread, which addresses basically this very point you are making now:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=118919

I'm not trying to preach or convert, just sharing what I know, have learned...have personally felt and experienced which either may/not apply in any case.

However, I note what you are saying and so next topic will be about the Nyaya philosophy, which also addresses this point, as it corresponds almost directly to Buddhism and Buddhist thought.

I also thought I lost you for a minute there, mate. lol