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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #11  
Old 05-11-2016, 05:49 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Hi sky123,

Unfortunately, that statement is patently untrue, both in principle and in demonstrated historical fact the world over in every tradition.
That is precisely what the guru does.

both in the symbolic pointing AND real facilitating (often occultly)

And, it is true because....
" Atta dipa " is precisely what the (real) guru [B7]IS[/b]...in actuality -

- not simply as you suggest: disposable, incidental, ineffective, irrelevant, or detrimental (according to your asserted premise).

What "might help you understand ".... is a contemplation of what actually constitutes that "light within".

It's not a bulb in a clay jar in the cellar.

~ J



Untrue for you, but not for me. Not everyone needs a teacher.
  #12  
Old 05-11-2016, 05:50 PM
RyanWind RyanWind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Sometimes it seems a veil has been lifted and you get glimpses into the true nature of reality then the veil drops again and your back to the same place. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be, little tasters

I assume it's the same journey for everyone though we all have unique lives and circumstances and thoughts and habits and conditioning and bodies and karma etc to deal with. Mooji described when the process started for him he also was primarily in "normal" consciousness most of the time and had a little bit of time in "seeing aware" consciousness. Then after many years, it reversed for him and he was in "seeing aware" consciousness most of the time and had a little bit of time in "normal" consciousness. To me it is very much a thing of getting it, losing it, but it is all learning. While we may lose it and go back, there is still progress each time the veil drops. This whole description makes it sound like so much work but really it is a dropping of work. It's a "not doing" so a nothing. One is what they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfisher
When he met the emperor of China and was asked "who is this who stands before me?" he answered "I don't know" Another version has Bodhidharma answering:- " A bag of bones with nothing holy in it", Again, when the emperor told Bodhidharma of all of his works of good and asked just what merit he had gained, the noble sage told him "none at all"

That wonderful place where one is in the moment while all of the mind is dropped. All of the ideas about needing to be something, hold something, defend something. It is really a different thing, where you realize you are perfect where you are, it was only some ideas you clung to that made it not so. But it is so impossible to talk about or describe. Like everything I just said it not present in that state. No ideas are there or conclusions or statements of fact. One is empty and not trying to fill.

"Who are you?" - See for yourself!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
A special transmission outside the scriptures;

Outside the scriptures is an interesting thing to say within a religion. You get it, outside the scriptures. I see many meanings here. First of all, what is religion? It is all "scriptures." It is the outward form. It is the foundation of the house. Knowledge or "scripture" is the foundation of our house. So in Zen comes this statement you get it outside of all of that. It is beyond all descriptions and texts and words and concepts. It is an actual living realization. This seems to me to be obvious when you practice this thing. It is an empting yourself of all of that and being present and free of it in the moment. The nature of it is described in the scripture, but the living and realization of it is about you and your focus. The energy and self awareness you bring into the moment. It has nothing to do with an awareness of scripture, it's an awareness of the meaning that was pointed to within the scripture.

The idea of transmission is interesting. Obviously within a religion one would equate it with teachers or masters within a religion passing on a teaching or understanding to another. But then this thing is taught by many not formally associated with any region though they all have been touched by various religions. Then is the idea of finding this thing spontaneously without any dependence on a teacher or religion. I myself have gotten it from others, there is that recognition of a truth upon self examination through their words, but then while their words are the "scripture" the thing that is transmitted is a self realization of a truth within myself, something you see in yourself, about yourself. This realization could be said, as it is in these sayings, to be "outside" the scripture. It is not a mere learning or memorizing of an idea. It is a self-realization of an idea and then the transformation that comes from this self realization.

Psalm 81:6 ""Now I will take the load from your shoulders; I will free your hands from their heavy tasks."

Isaiah 9:4
For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders,

Matthew 11:28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Out beyond ideas of wrong doing
and right doing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass
the world is too full to talk about.”
Rumi

“Too lazy to be ambitious,
I let the world take care of itself.
Ten days' worth of rice in my bag;
a bundle of twigs by the fireplace.
Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment?
Listening to the night rain on my roof,
I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out.”
― Ryokan

“Not thinking about anything is Zen. Once you know this, walking, sitting, or lying down, everything you do is Zen.”
― Bodhidharma
  #13  
Old 05-11-2016, 05:55 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Only a Buddha doesn't need help.

For everyone else there is a difference between needing and wanting.


That is your opinion to which you are entitled. Some need a teacher, others don't. To state that everyone needs a teacher is very judgemental.
  #14  
Old 05-11-2016, 06:08 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Hi sky123,
Quote:
Untrue for you, but not for me. Not everyone needs a teacher.
Good for you! And all 3 of those assertions may be true, however....

Evidently you must have missed this:

* regardless of your own (or anyone's) specific personal needs which of course
is a personal determination, an independent issue
apart from the general viability of the general principle.
Two different things.

For the sake of clarity and to avoid a common confusion -
iow:
If one chooses for themselves to forego the opportunity or option of a guru - it doesn't necessarily invalidate the general principle in and of itself as a viable option (for others) just because one makes that choice for themselves.

Your previous assertion (with my added emphasis to make my point) was categorical:
Quote:
A guru can never point to anothers true nature
e.g., that the (authentic) guru cannot help - in principle - which is simply not true.

Beyond that, it seems silly to argue (imo - although you're welcome to persist in this vein) that a guru can't help anyone else because one doesn't make that choice for themselves.

~ J
  #15  
Old 05-11-2016, 06:08 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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I said everyone can use help.

To be one that refuses such help I would say look within and ask why one is so resistant to being helped.

To have an open heart that helps others one must be open to being helped as well. Two sides of the same coin.
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  #16  
Old 05-11-2016, 06:15 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Hi sky123,

Good for you and all 3 of those assertions may be true, however....

Evidently you must have missed this:

* regardless of your own (or anyone's) specific personal needs which of course
is a personal determination, an independent issue
apart from the general viability of the general principle.
Two different things.

For the sake of clarity and to avoid a common confusion -
iow:
If one chooses for themselves to forego the opportunity or option of a guru - it doesn't necessarily invalidate the general principle in and of itself as a viable option (for others) just because one makes that choice for themselves.

Your previous assertion was categorical, that the (authentic) guru cannot help - in principle - which is simply not true. Beyond that, it's silly to argue that a guru can't help anyone because I don't choose one to help me.

~ J



No I did not say a guru cannot help, I said that not everyone needs a teacher, big difference.
Be a light unto yourself...... The Buddha's Farewell
  #17  
Old 05-11-2016, 06:25 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
I said everyone can use help.

To be one that refuses such help I would say look within and ask why one is so resistant to being helped.

To have an open heart that helps others one must be open to being helped as well. Two sides of the same coin.


You refuse help when you feel confident that you don't need it, if you are content with your practise. You refuse help when you feel that teachers have nothing to offer you because you have Buddha's teachings, what more do you need.
Some need a teacher, others don't.
You don't need to accept help to give it, some people are givers not takers....
You are judging others that you know nothing about, everyone is at different levels of understanding and not everyone needs a teacher like you state continuously.
  #18  
Old 05-11-2016, 06:28 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
No I did not say a guru cannot help, I said that not everyone needs a teacher, big difference.
Be a light unto yourself...... The Buddha's Farewell

Well, sky123, aside from the evident issue in the discussion of intellectual honesty, or lack thereof (and feel free to see my previous post), I'll point out from your own quoted here, that the Buddha was leaving the physical world after being a guru to thousands (including his successors) for what? 40 years? So at least we know he was a master of irony even if all of his teaching was a futile and complete waste of time!!

Again, what do you think constitutes that 'light within' that he was referencing? As in, who is this "yourself" he was referring to?
Do you think the Buddha's light and your light are separate, and should be maintained as such, as matter of principle, perhaps as the very means of discovery?
That is the philosophical basis of your assertion (again, regardless of red-herring issue* of 'my choice'/'your choice').

* for me anyway. I'm not taking jonesboy's apparent position of 'mandate'/mandatory regarding gurus - only that in principle and in actual fact, they are viable as an expedient, and viable as an option.

~ J
  #19  
Old 05-11-2016, 06:52 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir

Well, sky123, aside from the evident issue in the discussion of intellectual honesty (or lack thereof), I'll point out from your own quoted here, that the Buddha was leaving the physical world after being a guru to thousands (including his successors) for what? 40 years? So at least we know he was a master of irony even if all of his teaching was a futile and complete waste of time!!

Again, what do you think constitutes that 'light within' that he was referencing? As in, who is this "yourself" he was referring to?
Do you think the Buddha's light and your light are separate, and should be maintained as such, as matter of principle, perhaps as the very means of discovery?
That is the philosophical basis of your assertion (again, regardless of red-herring issue* of 'my choice'/'your choice').

* for me anyway. I'm not taking jonesboy's apparent position of 'mandate'/mandatory regarding gurus - only that in principle and in actual fact, they are viable as an expedient, and viable as an option.

~ J


Yes they are viable if you need one, but some don't....
  #20  
Old 05-11-2016, 06:53 PM
bees bees is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Only a Buddha doesn't need help.

For everyone else there is a difference between needing and wanting.

Bodhidharma himself said:

"If you don’t understand by yourself, you’ll have to find a teacher to get to the bottom of life and death. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isn’t a teacher. Even if he can recite the Twelvefold Canon he can’t escape the Wheel of Birth and Death. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star was able to recite the entire Canon. But he didn’t escape the Wheel, because he didn’t see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think it’s the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your mind, reciting so much prose is useless.

To find a Buddha all you have to do is see your nature. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who’s free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don’t see your nature and run around all day looking somewhere else, you’ll never find a buddha. The truth is there’s nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Don’t suffer them in vain."


Zen Master Bodhidharma's Zen Teachings


I for one am forever grateful to my teacher.
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