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  #31  
Old 22-06-2017, 02:47 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
On reviewing this thread, I see that was confused about who said what 'n when and can't figure out why. My apologies, MARDAV70.
I can easily relate! This forum is like a fun version of the Tower of Babel. :)
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  #32  
Old 22-06-2017, 03:42 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
I was reading one of Frank DeMarco's channeled books not long ago and it was mentioned that we each have roughly 30 or so guides/soul-based-influences working along with us at any given time. He wrote that some of these influences have experienced several lifetimes already while other influences haven't experienced a one. Upon reading this I purposefully went into a very quiet state-of-mind and politely requested that all influences that didn't already have a life-time experience be purposefully removed from my team. It's obvious to me that if they don't have the guts to do what all of us here are involved-in, on a day to day basis, then their influence would be choppy, at best.




Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
We are here, we are present, we are engaged in what clearly feels real. The idea that we should be dreaming about elsewhere has never felt functionally viable in regards to our issues at hand. When it's time to go home we go home, while in terms of the present, there's an endless diversity of fascinating and riveting stuff within easy reach for being openly explored! :)
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  #33  
Old 22-06-2017, 04:57 PM
MARDAV70 MARDAV70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
On reviewing this thread, I see that was confused about who said what 'n when and can't figure out why. My apologies, MARDAV70.
Apology hands down accepted, davidsun. Lol...I've been guilty of that, too.
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  #34  
Old 19-07-2017, 12:38 PM
ketzer
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Fundamentally, I think we are just empty open awareness. We are aware of nothing (no thing) and therefore we are nothing. Everything we believe in we must first experience in some way and to experience it we must first create it within our awareness, even if we borrow the information to do so. We create it from nothing, become aware of it, experience it, and then come to believe in it.
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  #35  
Old 19-07-2017, 04:04 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Fundamentally, I think we are just empty open awareness. We are aware of nothing (no thing) and therefore we are nothing. Everything we believe in we must first experience in some way and to experience it we must first create it within our awareness, even if we borrow the information to do so. We create it from nothing, become aware of it, experience it, and then come to believe in it.
What you are saying, I think, is that you believe that the Essence of (all) Being has absolutely no qualitative 'nature'.

In my experience (you would say this is just an 'arbitrarily' chosen projection, creation, etc., yes?) IT (the Essence of Life) is Love (of 'Life', of being 'alive') and Joy (of 'living', at being 'alive').

I think IT is so and may be directly flow-experienced whether I or you or anyone else believes IT is so or not. On the other hand, I think, if one's Love and Joy flow gets caught in an 'eddy' wherein one experience such otherwise, maybe 'nothingness', starkly enough, then that is what one may believe to be the universal case -- till one's e-merges from said 'eddy' and rejoins the River-of-Life's flow, that is.

True or not, that's what makes the most sense to me, and so that's the 'story' I AM sticking to!
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  #36  
Old 20-07-2017, 12:18 AM
ketzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
What you are saying, I think, is that you believe that the Essence of (all) Being has absolutely no qualitative 'nature'.

In my experience (you would say this is just an 'arbitrarily' chosen projection, creation, etc., yes?) IT (the Essence of Life) is Love (of 'Life', of being 'alive') and Joy (of 'living', at being 'alive').

I think IT is so and may be directly flow-experienced whether I or you or anyone else believes IT is so or not. On the other hand, I think, if one's Love and Joy flow gets caught in an 'eddy' wherein one experience such otherwise, maybe 'nothingness', starkly enough, then that is what one may believe to be the universal case -- till one's e-merges from said 'eddy' and rejoins the River-of-Life's flow, that is.

True or not, that's what makes the most sense to me, and so that's the 'story' I AM sticking to!

What you are saying, I think, is that you believe that the Essence of (all) Being has absolutely no qualitative 'nature'.


Hmmm.... I seem to recognize your words but I am not sure we speak the same language. I think I might be saying the essence of all things that we say “Be” is only qualitative in nature. It is the qualities of the nouns that matter to us. Just exactly what it means for something to “Be” is not as important as the qualities it has once it is "being", the qualities that give me the experiences I desire. Though the nouns be illusory, the verbs need not be. After all, Cypher’s steak was juicy and delicious even though it existed only in the matrix (or did it exist elsewhere as well), and so he enjoyed eating it regardless of where it existed.
In my experience (you would say this is just an 'arbitrarily' chosen projection, creation, etc., yes?) IT (the Essence of Life) is Love (of 'Life', of being 'alive') and Joy (of 'living', at being 'alive').
No. While the words projection or creation sound fine to me, the word just sounds a bit too derogatory, and I think our creations need not be arbitrarily chosen. I would agree that Love and Joy are important parts of the Essence of life, yet so are hate, anger, and sorrow. They are all different hues of the color of life and depend upon each other for their existence.

I think IT is so and may be directly flow-experienced whether I or you or anyone else believes IT is so or not. On the other hand, I think, if one's Love and Joy flow gets caught in an 'eddy' wherein one experience such otherwise, maybe 'nothingness', starkly enough, then that is what one may believe to be the universal case -- till one's e-merges from said 'eddy' and rejoins the River-of-Life's flow, that is.


I am not sure I followed that, but I do like the sound of it. Anyway, I would say nothingness is just quietude in consciousness, the undisturbed state, in which there are no things..... which gives it a certain quality of no-thing-ness. And yet, in this state there is unlimited potentiality, for with nothing present, anything can be brought into being. Like the block of wood before the carver goes to work, it can be carved into almost anything the carver wishes. As soon as a bit is carved off, what can be carved becomes a bit more limited. This act of bringing things into being and experiencing them is what brings about the flow of life, with all its joys and sorrows. Sometimes it flows smooth and quiet, other times we run the rapids.

True or not, that's what makes the most sense to me, and so that's the 'story' I AM sticking to!


It’s your universe, you should have it the way you like it.
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  #37  
Old 20-07-2017, 02:49 AM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
I would agree that Love and Joy are important parts of the Essence of life, yet so are hate, anger, and sorrow. They are all different hues of the color of life and depend upon each other for their existence.
I very much appreciate the quality of the spirit in which you engaged with my response to your postulating 'nothingness' as some kind of 'primal' pre-experiential condition. (Forgive me if I misread what you said, but that is what I think you said.

When I say that the Essence of Being is essentially Love and Joy, I mean that, in my view, there is no such thing (or state, per-existential or existential) as 'nothingness'. There is only Love and Joy.

This gets a bit convoluted in 'existential' environments, but, for instance (in my view) fear is just the experience/expression of 'insecure' Love, greed is just the experience/expression of 'dissatisfied' love, hate is just the experience/expression of 'disappointed' Love, sorrow is just the experience/expression of 'bereft' Love, depression is just the experience/expression of 'blocked' Joy, etc., etc., etc.

In other words, Love and Joy are features of the Essence of Being (i.e. of 'God') , and so are an ever present 'baseline' from which the entire 'rainbow' of 'colors of all experience-n-expression 'arise'. We don't create from a 'base' of 'nothingness' and so 'emerge' 'into' various kinds of expression-n-experience i.e. into 'being'. We are always Being Itself, sometimes referenced as Presence, never (ever!) 'nothing' (though we may falsely 'imagine' that to be case) in other words.

Again, all of the above, is 'in my view'.
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  #38  
Old 20-07-2017, 03:02 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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For every experience, there is that which facilitates it, even if self-facilitation is its own reward.

To others, it is very difficult for them to understand why I worship Lord Siva in all glorious form, when He is, in essence, formless which is tantamount to Him not existing and yet, He still does, at least to me anyway and when I say that, I mean that I have directly realised it, where those who take me to task over it have not.

I had this fellow the other day telling me that God is just a word and all Gods are the same, so instead of worshiping Siva, why aren't you worshiping Yahweh? to which, I said that if I worshiped Yahweh, I would have another uninformed idiot come along and say "instead of worshiping Yahweh, why aren't you worshiping Allah?"

So, in my experiences Siva exists as both the personal and impersonal. To many, this is a total conundrum...it cannot be that way because "I AM" simply means that nothing else IS because the nature of my being negates it from existing...how silly and naive this is!

There are those who speak from knowledge, those who speak from wisdom and never the twain shall meet.
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  #39  
Old 20-07-2017, 12:05 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Very erudite exposition, Nec. Except for the final 'kick' (IMO) Which reminded me of: "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." (Acts 9) 'Pricks' with many meanings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
There are those who speak from knowledge, those who speak from wisdom and never the twain shall meet.

http://vedanta.org/yoga-spiritual-pr...ge-jnana-yoga/
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  #40  
Old 20-07-2017, 12:06 PM
ketzer
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[quote=davidsun] QUOTE]

I very much appreciate the quality of the spirit in which you engaged with my response to your postulating 'nothingness' as some kind of 'primal' pre-experiential condition. (Forgive me if I misread what you said, but that is what I think you said.


I appreciate the spirit of your responses as well. Other parts of my universe have been a bit dark lately, so your lack of hostility is refreshing.

I do not see nothingness as primal nor pre, just without form, containing no things.

When I say that the Essence of Being is essentially Love and Joy, I mean that, in my view, there is no such thing (or state, per-existential or existential) as 'nothingness'. There is only Love and Joy.

This gets a bit convoluted in 'existential' environments, but, for instance (in my view) fear is just the experience/expression of 'insecure' Love, greed is just the experience/expression of 'dissatisfied' love, hate is just the experience/expression of 'disappointed' Love, sorrow is just the experience/expression of 'bereft' Love, depression is just the experience/expression of 'blocked' Joy, etc., etc., etc.

In other words, Love and Joy are features of the Essence of Being (i.e. of 'God') , and so are an ever present 'baseline' from which the entire 'rainbow' of 'colors of all experience-n-expression 'arise'. We don't create from a 'base' of 'nothingness' and so 'emerge' 'into' various kinds of expression-n-experience i.e. into 'being'. We are always Being Itself, sometimes referenced as Presence, never (ever!) 'nothing' (though we may falsely 'imagine' that to be case) in other words.


Yes, there does seem to be a bit of a language difference here. I did not mean to imply a state of nothingness as a state of no existence. Just because the container is empty of things, does not mean it does not exist, even if the container itself is without form. In fact the fewer things the container holds the greater it’s potential to hold them, with an empty container being filled with potential.

I do like your conceptualization of god as love with the other emotions as colors of the spectrum. I suppose it works better or worse depending on the meaning one holds for the word love (that language thing again). I suspect that ultimately all dualities are illusions.

Again, all of the above, is 'in my view'.


Of course, as it is with all of us.
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